Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[piemonster]

Are you serious?

Surely you realize that the negativity is a conditioned response to decades of doping scandals including two recent Tour de France winners who were stripped of their titles?

Are you intentionally trying to get a rise out of these guys? B/c it's fine to be a SKY fan and emphatically support Wiggins, but contending in absolute terms that they are definitely not doping is not only intellectually dishonest, it's downright risky given the past 20 years'history...

Just the last 20 years?

Drugs may have got smarter, in that time frame but they have been there longer than that

 

[piemonster]

if you wonder, Sky is hardly singled out. Evans is riding for an extremely dodgy team with an extremely dodgy management. If anything the plausibility of Evans being clean is smaller.

I used to look like Evans back in the 90's, when I was fully engrossed in the more illicit side of 90's dance music culture.

Read into that what you will.... it's those eyes always boggling!!!

 

[Cavalier]

Yes I do.
Can we debate this without people making accusations with no evidence whatsoever? Can we debate this without a bunch of forum ne'er do wells (losers) insulting riders?

No, you don't. Your location says Thailand. Unless you're putting false information on that, it's reasonably simple to draw the conclusion you can't be 100% certain of when Brad's knocking one out, let alone possibly taking something he shouldn't be. You cannot possibly know, because you're not with him 100% of the time.

It really is that simple.

Investigations come about as a result of suspicion, as a result of extraordinary circumstances. What we're seeing here is people putting together those circumstances. A great deal of it may be wrong, some of it may be right. If you don't like that, you're posting in the wrong place.

 

[Krebs cycle]

The only drivel is your "put you money where your mouth is" with a bet you'll likely win no matter how dirty Wiggins might be. The vast majority of dopers simply don't test positive for blood doping, or anything else within any given 12 month window. Let's say that USADA can prove that Lance doped using solely his biopassport (the case is of cause not based solely on that, and there's no reason to think that there'd be a case if not for other factors). That still doesn't change the fact that he if that bet had been made at any point of Armstrongs career it would have been lost.

The odds of catching other proven dopers like Ulrich, Riis or countless others are also far below 50% for any given 12 month window. Hell I'd be wiling to bet that any given rider, will not test positive within 12 months, and I don't even need to restrict it to blood manipulation.

ETA: In fact your Armstrong example only serves to reinforce that. If we assume he can be proven to have doped from his bio passport alone, then why hasn't he been charged until now? There can be various answers to that question, but virtually all of them reinforce the fact that you can't count on dopers being caught within 12 months.

This is hilarious. I never would have made that bet 10yrs ago because I knew that there was no sanctioned test for blood manipulation back then. There was no biopassport.

If you like I'll extend it to 5yrs. What that means is based on blood results up until the present tour. I cannot predict the future and if Wiggins were to actually have a dramatic improvement in TT performance somewhere in the future which is strongly indicative of doping, then I'll be the first person in here calling for his head on a chopping block.

 

[joe_papp]

game theory

It's subscription only, but I can probably guess most of what it says. I'm a Political Science major so game theory is something I'm reasonably familiar with.

Sorry everyone I didn't realize the article had been placed behind a pay-wall. It was open-reading for several years.

Shermer's key points are that:

* An alarming number of sports—baseball, football, track and field, and especially cycling—have been shaken by doping scandals in recent years.

* Among the many banned drugs in the cycling pharmacopoeia, the most effective is recombinant erythropoietin (r-EPO), an artificial hormone that stimulates the production of red blood cells, thereby delivering more oxygen to the muscles.

* Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional cyclists to dope: the drugs are extremely effective as well as difficult or impossible to detect; the payoffs for success are high; and as more riders use them, a “clean” rider may become so noncompetitive that he or she risks being cut from the team.

* The game theory analysis of cycling can readily be extended to other sports. The results show quantitatively how governing bodies and antidoping agencies can most effectively target efforts to clean up their sports.

 

[armchairclimber]

I always wondered where Baghdad Bob ended up. Who would of thought he would end up a Sky fan posting in The Clinic?

Now I get it, you think that new posters are old posters in disguise. More paranoia...it's that bogeyman again.

 

[piemonster]

Sometimes I think it's a question of psychological perspective.

Does the average cyclist, be they a commuter or an enthusiastic club racer really understand and appreciate the pressure pro riders are put under by both themselves and there teams to win? I sure as hell don't, I'd guess it's pretty intense but I'm not someone that can claim to have experienced it.

To get to a professional level in cycling takes a fairly extraordinary level of desire to win. How intense is that need to win for GT riders? From the perspective of someone in the peleton what risk is acceptable, what moral sacrifices are they prepared to take under fairly extreme conditions? You don't have to be a pro cyclist to disregard morals under extreme conditions.

Not saying drugs are acceptable, I just find it hard to imagine that they are not in common use. Especially in the GT's

Anyway, Tdf is finishing soon. Olympics will be kicking off soon, did Dwayne Chambers qualify? Must get that steak out of the freezer for tea.

 

[Franklin]

Now I get it, you think that new posters are old posters in disguise. More paranoia...it's that bogeyman again.

It helps if you google things before posting

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/#quotes

 

[armchairclimber]

It helps if you google things before posting

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/#quotes

If you look back a couple of pages you'll see that he appears to think I'm someone else.

Life is way too short to be googling the posts of nutjobs, but thanks for the clarification.

 

[Digger]

You may share the same name as me but you stoop to a level that is quite unnecesary. Just provide the proof, that's all I ask. There is no proof. That's why you can't provide it. How about taking my email and then in five years if you are proved right you can come over and pick up the bikes. I'll also pay your air fare.
At the end of the day I simply do not understand why you guys are so negative. We have a great leader, a great race and a great team. We are anticipating a fight back from Evans today and we'll be glued to the TV tonight (our time). If Evans wins and takes over the leadership, I guess you'll all point your fingers at him too. Do you post the same rubbish on tennis or soccer forums? Was Federer doped? Was his win worth anything? How about Murray? Who won the Euro cup? I guess they were doped too. One of the Kids I train got 2nd in the Junior Sprint national series on Sunday. Was he doped? I dropped Albert and Richard on the Canal Road on Tuesday morning. Was I doped? Come on tell me! Really your nonsense is evil. It really is sad.

This is a cycling forum...so that point is mute.
Secondly, all top level cyclists are talents...all of the train hard, so your last point is also mute. You talk about Evans, the same guy who worked with Ferrari and refused to say last year it was a win for clean cycling.
The rest of your stuff saying you know for certain etc etc is not worth responding to...

 

[No_Balls]

Two riders for the podium. All driving in front like it was the Telekom of the 90´ies and/or the US Postal Service "form"program. No doping there

 

[Benotti69]

................. So guys how about putting up or shutting up?

How about avoiding the clinic. Seems it might be better for you as you refuse to take of the union jack blinkers.

The clinic discusses doping of all colours and all nationalities. Do a search there are threads in here for everyone from Directeur Sportifs to Soigneurs.

Why? Because that is the sport as created by those who run it, those who are controlling it and those who are competing in it.

This TdF has had 2 positives. 1 for a direutic the other for allgedly dealing.

And currently beating these dopers is TeamSky!

 

[No_Balls]

Their riders have all come on in the best form of their lives. I think this is as far as Evans can imply in an open interview

Best form of their lives.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I think that travelling to a location with a bunch of altitude tents and where you can access natural altitude is a great strategy. Randy Wilbur has also done studies which show that if you live at altitude but then use supplemental oxygen for high intensity training, you get pretty good outcomes also.

Supplemental oxygen wouldn't be a violation if I understand it.

Interesting thought.

 

[stazzy]

And currently beating these dopers is TeamSky!

Sorry had to chuckle at this. Go on

 

[red_death]

Once again the strawman is trotted out "there is no solid evidence"!. never mind that this is about suspicion, not solid proof (especially since that is almost never available).

We have a situation in cycling where a team mirrors USPS, where they hired a dodgy doctor (contrary to the opinion that a team doing that should be banned), where a team refuses to answer journalists questions, where a trainer, Kerrison, is telling falsehoods about transparency, where a rider claims to have better form than in his doping days.

Yet we are not allowed to clamour for transparency? We have to accept being insulted by the race leader?

Hyperbole. Nobody is even remotely going into this directoion. An emotional tearjerky post does not make for a convincing argument

Yawn and how much of what you accuse others of are you indulging in...

Straw man - check.
Emotional tearjerky post - check.
Lack of evidence - check.
Mock indignation - check.

I'll add in: micro-analysing anything a team members says for potential inconsistencies (because then they must be doping as well).

Suspicion based on a lack of evidence is well...bullsh*t and bluster. It is ironic how the anti-Sky mob say prove they are clean and everyone else says prove they are doping. At least with the doping you can definitively prove that someone doped, I wonder what "evidence" the anti-Sky people would accept for proof they are clean.

This nonsense about transparency is just that - unless someone is going to follow every single team member 24/7 then people will always find ways to cheat the system.

 

[red_death]

Out of interest what is the wonder drug that Team Sky have access to that none of the other teams do? Given that allegedly they have been doping for anywhere between 12 and 48 months that is one heck of a secret.

 

[thehog]

Out of interest what is the wonder drug that Team Sky have access to that none of the other teams do? Given that allegedly they have been doping for anywhere between 12 and 48 months that is one heck of a secret.

No wonder drug needed. It logistics that brings team wide doping to the fore. Logistics costs money and needs enablement to make it happen.

USPS weren't doing any wonder drugs. They just had the transfusions and the microdosing down pat. Knowing when testing will occur is a great help also.

IF you're looking for a wonder drug I believe AICAR has assisted greatly but its nothing new.

 

[hrotha]

Out of interest what is the wonder drug that Team Sky have access to that none of the other teams do? Given that allegedly they have been doping for anywhere between 12 and 48 months that is one heck of a secret.

Ferrari didn't use any top-secret wonder drugs with his clients. It's all about getting the right combination of products and avoiding testing positive.

 

[Choocher]

Sorry everyone I didn't realize the article had been placed behind a pay-wall. It was open-reading for several years.

Shermer's key points are that:

* An alarming number of sports—baseball, football, track and field, and especially cycling—have been shaken by doping scandals in recent years.

* Among the many banned drugs in the cycling pharmacopoeia, the most effective is recombinant erythropoietin (r-EPO), an artificial hormone that stimulates the production of red blood cells, thereby delivering more oxygen to the muscles.

* Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional cyclists to dope: the drugs are extremely effective as well as difficult or impossible to detect; the payoffs for success are high; and as more riders use them, a “clean” rider may become so noncompetitive that he or she risks being cut from the team.

* The game theory analysis of cycling can readily be extended to other sports. The results show quantitatively how governing bodies and antidoping agencies can most effectively target efforts to clean up their sports.

The movie Freakonomics delves into to this, as well, although their discussion relates to another sport--sumo wrestling in Japan.

 

[Cerberus]

This is hilarious. I never would have made that bet 10yrs ago because I knew that there was no sanctioned test for blood manipulation back then. There was no biopassport.

If you like I'll extend it to 5yrs. What that means is based on blood results up until the present tour. I cannot predict the future and if Wiggins were to actually have a dramatic improvement in TT performance somewhere in the future which is strongly indicative of doping, then I'll be the first person in here calling for his head on a chopping block.

[/QUOTE]
I agree it's hilarious how transparently "heads i win, tails you lose" your bet is. If you're right and the bio-passport actually prevents blood doping the Wiggins is clean and you win. If I'm right and the Bio-passport only restricts the amount of doping then the odds of Wiggins being caught is probably still less than 50%. There's been very few suspensions based on the Bio-pasport alone, and there and of cause if he gets caught doping in 2013 it doesn't count or if he gets caught using something that isn't blood manipulation. Way to demonstrate you conviction that Wiggins is clean.

It's worth noting BTW that UCI clearly don't believe that the biological passport actually prevents rather than restricts blood doping. Before the 2010 Tour they made their "suspicion list" (where Wiggins was rated a 5). It simply makes no sense to have a suspicion list if you believe the passport prevents blood doping.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

ianfra, welcome back. Did you know tom simpson personally back in the day?

 

[mastersracer]

what happened to the Sky is the new USPS? This 'queen' stage is a joke - 40 or so riders up the road inlcuding the likes of Hincapie, a huge main group riding tempo all day. So much for total control.

 

[The Real GFY]

Yes I do.
Can we debate this without people making accusations with no evidence whatsoever? Can we debate this without a bunch of forum ne'er do wells (losers) insulting riders?

Sounds like you are trolling here. If you are so upset by these comments and this thread in the clinic, then why post? Looks like you are just trying to get a rise.

 

[Cerberus]

what happened to the Sky is the new USPS? This 'queen' stage is a joke - 40 or so riders up the road inlcuding the likes of Hincapie, a huge main group riding tempo all day. So much for total control.

Are any of the people up the road a threat to Sky in any way? No? Then I don't see how it's a sign of weakness.