Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[UlleGigo]

I love that when pressed its always the argument from authority that wins through. But what else is there when pure bs fails you.

 

[Benotti69]

Well Cav was waaaaaay quicker than anyone else today, an amazing finish, the guy is class. So is he doping too, or is he just the best sprinter in the world who has had a quiet few weeks as him team are concentrating on Wiggo's soon to be histroic win?

Agreed that Liquigas tactics the other day were stupid, they chose the same tactic Sky have been using on the climbs, that plays right into Bradleys hands, thats how he prefer the climbs. It worked for LQ in the Giro but their team is simply not as strong as Sky's and so when it came to the business end of the stage they had shelled most of their own riders leaving Sky to mop up. Well mop up 2nd and 3rd.

I don't like jumping to doping conclusions but that seems to be compulsory in the clinic so i'll join in, to me Vino, Horner and Valverde have aroused much more suspicion than any of the Sky team. Horner even faked a crash into the woods to get a quick juice boost in the thicket beofre rejoining as his team are so paranoid about being watched following the Frankie scandal

You don't like to jump to doping conclusions?

Then don't jump to assume anyone is clean would be a start.

This is pro cycling after all.

It gets worse in here now with the sky fans assuming that the clinic is for so called cycling haters. Armstrongs were bad enough, but Wiggins are taking it to another level

The people in the clinic who call it as they see it watches the sport 365 days a year, not just July!

 

[roundabout]

You don't like to jump to doping conclusions?

Then don't jump to assume anyone is clean would be a start.

This is pro cycling after all.

It gets worse in here now with the sky fans assuming that the clinic is for so called cycling haters. Armstrongs were bad enough, but Wiggins are taking it to another level

The people in the clinic who call it as they see it watches the sport 365 days a year, not just July!

You are being far too civil to somebody who is not at the least interested in a genuine discussion.

 

[zlev11]

anyone think those "warm downs" Sky does at the end of tough stages have anything to do with the drugs they're on? maybe they're all on something so hardcore that they can't just go from all out to a dead stop without dropping dead.

i remember seeing Wiggins do it after the Mende stage at Paris-Nice and thinking it was VERY strange, and then the entire team was doing it at the Dauphine.

 

[enCYCLOpedia]

Actually, he does get it and it is your response that is misinformed. You are talking about a Cancellara who's training has been severely compromised this year due to injury, riding on a course that was not ideally suited to him and forget about Wiggins for a moment; there were several other riders who either beat or were close to FC who he would usually wipe the floor with.

Plus this talk about road vs track is BS. Back in the day riders regularly did both. I don't recall anyone whining about Eddie Merckx being a trackie who was winning GT's or for that matter him being a GT winner being able to set one hour records on the track...all without massive changes to his physique.

The hour world record (or attempts at it) are not the domain of classic track cyclists, but of good road time trialists, as it is much closer to a typical road ITT than to typical track events.

In the 2012 tour, Fabian Cancelara was beaten by Froome and Wiggins. The real surprise here is not Wiggins, but Froome, who (in 2012) seems to defy conventional wisdom when it comes to the physiology of exceptional time trialists. Perhaps this just means that conventional wisdom is wrong?

 

[DirtyWorks]

... Perhaps this just means that conventional wisdom is wrong?

The sport is 100+ years old by now and you are suggesting something has happened that defies at minimum 50 years of the sport's 10's of thousands of never-were's, wanna-be's, thousands of journeymen, the rare consistent top performer and precious super-champion. Really?

No. This is another false argument from the USPS days.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Coppi,Moser,Berzin.

LeMond won a silver medal in pursuit at 1979 Jr. Worlds (and won the road race). He must have been a better pursuiter than Wigans because it didn't take him 10 years of flailing around in the laughing group before he won his first TdF.

 

[Cycle Chic]

anyone think those "warm downs" Sky does at the end of tough stages have anything to do with the drugs they're on? maybe they're all on something so hardcore that they can't just go from all out to a dead stop without dropping dead.

i remember seeing Wiggins do it after the Mende stage at Paris-Nice and thinking it was VERY strange, and then the entire team was doing it at the Dauphine.

Maybe its to replace running up and down hotel corridors in the early hours of the morning

They are the Stepford Team Boassen Hagen needs new batteries if his slow interviews are anything to go by

 

[2008885]

anyone think those "warm downs" Sky does at the end of tough stages have anything to do with the drugs they're on? maybe they're all on something so hardcore that they can't just go from all out to a dead stop without dropping dead.

Yes, I'm sure that's the case.

 

[andy1234]

Do many of the posters here have so little knowledge of physiology in general, and cycling in particular, that they think the attributes required to be a world class pursuiter are so different than the attributes required to be a GT rider?

Vo2 max testing takes place over a very short period of time, not over multiple days or weeks, yet it is an excellent predictor of the ability to perform in a GT. Go figure?
Just ask Greg LeMond, he seems to think it's an essential ingredient of any GT contender.

Unsurprisingly, all world class pursuiters have world class Vo2 max levels.

Whether riding for 4 minutes, an hour, or 6 hours, the main limiting factor is how efficient the bodys oxygen delivery mechanism is. If it wasn't, the sport would not have been turned upside down by EPO.

Because the attributes required to turn in a 4km pursuit, there isn't a world class pursuiter who couldn't turn in a world class hour long time trial, even with a modest endurance base.

The limiting factors for most pursuiters, in stage races, would be body weight and lack of specific endurance training. If body weight can be managed, and the individual responds well to the endurance training, then all the attributes required to be successful are there. It just might take a few years (if it does at all) for the distance work to pay dividends

 

[andy1234]

LeMond won a silver medal in pursuit at 1979 Jr. Worlds (and won the road race). He must have been a better pursuiter than Wigans because it didn't take him 10 years of flailing around in the laughing group before he won his first TdF.

Who know how much flailing LeMond might have done, had his career started in the 90's or 00's instead of the 80's.

He ended up in the laughing group pretty quickly when the real doping started.

 

[Benotti69]

Who know how much flailing LeMond might have done, had his career started in the 90's or 00's instead of the 80's.

He ended up in the laughing group pretty quickly when the real doping started.

Something to be proud of i would have thought.

 

[Benotti69]

You are being far too civil to somebody who is not at the least interested in a genuine discussion.

Sorry about that roundabout. Some are poor misguided souls blinded by thoughts of nationalism as spewed out by the daily mail and need some civility now and again.

I'll try and not let it happen again.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Who know how much flailing LeMond might have done, had his career started in the 90's or 00's instead of the 80's.

He ended up in the laughing group pretty quickly when the real doping started.

So you are saying that Wigans got out of the laughing group by utilizing a finely tuned doping program? I think we agree here.

 

[TubularBills]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/20/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france?intcmp=239

Bradley Wiggins set for £2m in prize and bonuses if he wins Tour de France

Cycling race's €450,000 first prize could be dwarfed by money from Team Sky contract if Briton is crowned champion

"The growing attraction of the Tour as a spectacle, as well as the success of Wiggins, has encouraged increasing numbers of people to take up cycling, which in turn is making the whole sport far more marketable to sponsors."

Hm.

 

[2008885]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/20/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france?intcmp=239

Bradley Wiggins set for £2m in prize and bonuses if he wins Tour de France

Cycling race's €450,000 first prize could be dwarfed by money from Team Sky contract if Briton is crowned champion

"The growing attraction of the Tour as a spectacle, as well as the success of Wiggins, has encouraged increasing numbers of people to take up cycling, which in turn is making the whole sport far more marketable to sponsors."

Hm.

What does "Hm" mean??

 

[Hugh Januss]

What does "Hm" mean??

I think "Hm" means that one can just replace Wigan's name in the quoted part with that of a certain Lance Armstrong and it would all read the same.

 

[Benotti69]

What does "Hm" mean??

I think Tubular was referring to the fact that Wiggins does it for the love of the sport and not the money. For Wiggins it is about riding his bike every day for hours, not for financial gain.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Do many of the posters here have so little knowledge of physiology in general, and cycling in particular, that they think the attributes required to be a world class pursuiter are so different than the attributes required to be a GT rider?

Vo2 max testing takes place over a very short period of time, not over multiple days or weeks, yet it is an excellent predictor of the ability to perform in a GT. Go figure?
Just ask Greg LeMond, he seems to think it's an essential ingredient of any GT contender.

Unsurprisingly, all world class pursuiters have world class Vo2 max levels.

Whether riding for 4 minutes, an hour, or 6 hours, the main limiting factor is how efficient the bodys oxygen delivery mechanism is. If it wasn't, the sport would not have been turned upside down by EPO.

Because the attributes required to turn in a 4km pursuit, there isn't a world class pursuiter who couldn't turn in a world class hour long time trial, even with a modest endurance base.

The limiting factors for most pursuiters, in stage races, would be body weight and lack of specific endurance training. If body weight can be managed, and the individual responds well to the endurance training, then all the attributes required to be successful are there. It just might take a few years (if it does at all) for the distance work to pay dividends

Ah, here we go again.
A GT is a 20+ day stage race, of course you will find that (natural) riders will have a high V02max number - that does not mean that someone who has a high V02 is going to withstand the rigors of a 20+ day stage race.

Just because you have the first ball out of the lottery/powerball does not mean you will win the big prize it just means you are still in the game.

 

[D-Queued]

Well Cav was waaaaaay quicker than anyone else today, an amazing finish, the guy is class. So is he doping too, or is he just the best sprinter in the world who has had a quiet few weeks as him team are concentrating on Wiggo's soon to be histroic win?

...

Doping cannot help you if you are a sprinter.

Cav is the best sprinter that the sport of cycling has ever seen. Nobody else in the peloton even knows how to pedal their bike, and none of the track guys understand how to shift gears.

Dave.

 

[andy1234]

Do many of the posters here have so little knowledge of physiology in general, and cycling in particular, that they think the attributes required to be a world class pursuiter are so different than the attributes required to be a GT rider?

Vo2 max testing takes place over a very short period of time, not over multiple days or weeks, yet it is an excellent predictor of the ability to perform in a GT. Go figure?
Just ask Greg LeMond, he seems to think it's an essential ingredient of any GT contender.

Unsurprisingly, all world class pursuiters have world class Vo2 max levels.

Whether riding for 4 minutes, an hour, or 6 hours, the main limiting factor is how efficient the bodys oxygen delivery mechanism is. If it wasn't, the sport would not have been turned upside down by EPO.

Because the attributes required to turn in a 4km pursuit, there isn't a world class pursuiter who couldn't turn in a world class hour long time trial, even with a modest endurance base.

The limiting factors for most pursuiters, in stage races, would be body weight and lack of specific endurance training. If body weight can be managed, and the individual responds well to the endurance training, then all the attributes required to be successful are there. It just might take a few years (if it does at all) for the distance work to pay dividends

Ah, here we go again.
A GT is a 20+ day stage race, of course you will find that (natural) riders will have a high V02max number - that does not mean that someone who has a high V02 is going to withstand the rigors of a 20+ day stage race.

Just because you have the first ball out of the lottery/powerball does not mean you will win the big prize it just means you are still in the game.

Agreed, thats why I said "if it does at all"

Endurance is a huge factor, but a pursuiter's endurance will undoubtedbly be underdeveloped, in comparison to a pure road rider, who trains almost exclusively in that area,

Some riders will respond to endurance work favourably, others not so much.
The pursuiters that do, will be the ones who end up as GT contenders.

 

[2008885]

I think "Hm" means that one can just replace Wigan's name in the quoted part with that of a certain Lance Armstrong and it would all read the same.

Ah, I see - just another juvenile BW = LA post.

 

[D-Queued]

Ah, I see - just another juvenile BW = LA post.

No, not at all. I perceived it as BW >> LA.

Learned from the master, took it to the next level.

After all, did Lance have to get his DS to scream at anyone on US Postal to 'sit up you idiot, you are dropping our team leader'.

Dave.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Ah, I see - just another juvenile BW = LA post.

Juvenile? Why juvenile? The parallels are there for all to see.

 

[Turner29]

Do many of the posters here have so little knowledge of physiology in general, and cycling in particular, that they think the attributes required to be a world class pursuiter are so different than the attributes required to be a GT rider?

Vo2 max testing takes place over a very short period of time, not over multiple days or weeks, yet it is an excellent predictor of the ability to perform in a GT. Go figure?
Just ask Greg LeMond, he seems to think it's an essential ingredient of any GT contender.

Unsurprisingly, all world class pursuiters have world class Vo2 max levels.

Whether riding for 4 minutes, an hour, or 6 hours, the main limiting factor is how efficient the bodys oxygen delivery mechanism is. If it wasn't, the sport would not have been turned upside down by EPO.

Because the attributes required to turn in a 4km pursuit, there isn't a world class pursuiter who couldn't turn in a world class hour long time trial, even with a modest endurance base.

The limiting factors for most pursuiters, in stage races, would be body weight and lack of specific endurance training. If body weight can be managed, and the individual responds well to the endurance training, then all the attributes required to be successful are there. It just might take a few years (if it does at all) for the distance work to pay dividends

"Do many of the posters here have so little knowledge of physiology in general, and cycling in particular, that they think the attributes required to be a world class pursuiter are so different than the attributes required to be a GT rider."

Obviously you do not, with your single dimensional focus on VO2 max.

While a high VO2 max is necessary for elite cycling performance, among elite cyclists, VO2 max alone does not correlate to well to success. If such were the case, races would not be necessary -- just do a VO2 max test instead.

Of all cycling disciplines, yes pursuit cyclists need not only a very high VO2 max, but a high percentage of Type II muscle fiber, since endurance is not required. Those lacking a high percentage of Type II muscle fiber simply will not be able to generate enough power to be successful.

Conversely, endurance events like Stage Racing (or marathon running for that matter) requires a relatively high VO2 max but more important, a high percentage of Type I muscle fiber -- efficient and fatigue resistant.

Horowitz JF, Sidossis LS, Coyle EF: "High efficiency of type I muscle fibers improves performance." International Journal of Sports Medicine 15(3):152-157, 1994, clearly demonstrates the importance of a high percentage of Type I muscle fiber to cycling endurance performance. When cyclists are matched for V0\O2 max, those with the higher percentage of Type I muscle fibers showed 10% better 1 hour performance:

73+/-3 % Type I, 48+/-2 % Type I, 4.48+/-0.13 l/min, 4.46+/-0.13 l/min, 342+/-9 watts, 315+/-11 watts

Such an advantage is required both for time-trialing and climbing, as climbing is essentially an up-hill time trial. Interestingly, for a variety of reasons outside the scope of this discussion, among endurance athletes, the various genetic factors contributing to a high VO2 max are mostly contrary to those contributing to a high percentage of Type I muscle fiber, although this is not true in the general population.

For these reasons, elite cyclists generally fall into one of the following catagories: Track and Sprinter, Classics, Grand Tour contender, based upon combinations of VO2 max and Type I muscle fiber, amongst other factors, such as BMI.

Thus, at one extreme, the track cyclist: very high VO2 max, high percentage Type II muscle fiber, high BMI.

At the other extreme, Grand Tour contender: relatively high VO2 max, high percentage Type I muscle fiber, low BMI.

In essence, Bradley Wiggins would have needed to change 2 of 3 major physiological traits in order to be a Grand Tour contender. While obviously possible for BMI, significant muscle fiber plasticity is still debated.

That being a Grand Tour Champion represents the sport's pinnacle, and that now other track cyclist has made the transition to Grand Tour Champion, or even serious contender, one can easily see why so many suspect Wiggins' transformation.