Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Feb 10, 2010
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mastersracer said:
So, how exactly is the fact that GB was unable to control the race evidence of doping?

+/- 40 seconds over 44k by a "climber" among the world's best TT'ers qualifies as extra-terrestrial. You've seen this myth before. They even dropped the cadence excuse. I would have switched it up and gone the not-round chain ring excuse and then demanded a percentage of the revenue spike.

mastersracer said:
How exactly is the fact that the main group was tired evidence of doping?

Because they were being dragged around by three or four guys for 150+ KM? This has been done to death. You insist these performances were clean, the more pragmatic folks disagree. We get it. Sky's Grand Tour squad has to be clean. But they are not.

I will make the same offer I made to another believer, let's agree to disagree for now. When the positives start for former Sky riders or the whole scam comes to light let's revisit. If it doesn't then I'm wrong. I know it's hard to believe, but a clean Sky would be a great outcome. It's not going to happen, but it would be nice.
 
Aug 29, 2010
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Why are Froome and Wiggins on a much better program than Porte, Rogers and Sivtsov (and EBH or is he not part of the Tenerife crew)? Do they know exactly how each of them are going to respond or has it just lucked out that way?

Chavanel was never 5th in reality - the graphics went wrong and they gave Pinotti's crossing as Chavanel for quite awhile.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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hrotha said:
Are we now allowed to say that Wiggins has, in fact, improved his time-trialing skills? While somehow also improving his climbing? At 29-32?
Climbing and TT are very similar, climbing is just all watts per kilo whereas total power and drag per kilo comes into factor on the flats.

Wiggin's sustainable power has increased significantly since 2010. I dont think he started doping just now, he's discovered someone or something new recently.

I said before if there was a 4,000m pursuit I was wondering if he might not win that too, after working on Grand Tour prep for the whole year which involves long days in the mountains...
 
Jul 6, 2012
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Froome is in the preliminary startlist for the Vuelta. Doesn't that seem insane? He has had the same programme as Wiggo for the last 2 months, only difference is less media I guess. And he wasn't exactly taking it easy in TdF finishing 2nd overall. It's only 4 weeks from end of TdF to start of Vuelta. Wiggo blamed his failure 2010 in TdF on participating in the Giro the same year, and it's usually 5 weeks between Giro and TdF. Consensus is that it's more or less impossible to performe 100% in two Grand Tours with only 4-5weeks in between. Sure, TdF-Vuelta might be easier than Giro-TdF, but not by much.

Sky should rest Froome imo, and let Uran and Henao be captains.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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JibberJim said:
Why are Froome and Wiggins on a much better program than Porte, Rogers and Sivtsov (and EBH or is he not part of the Tenerife crew)? Do they know exactly how each of them are going to respond or has it just lucked out that way?

Based on interviews with doping chemists/doctors/dealers, every body is different and as such part of doping is finding the combination that works.

It helps that the UCI has a history of managing positives such that they never start an AAF process for some riders.
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Why?

Algarve, CI, Romandie, Dauphine, Tour, Olympics isn't exactly a super hard schedule.

He has had barely 40 racing days. 30 at full speed.
 
Aug 24, 2011
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Froome took it 'easier' early in the season.

Though at least in part that could be due to his illness.
 
Jul 6, 2012
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roundabout said:
Why?

Algarve, CI, Romandie, Dauphine, Tour, Olympics isn't exactly a super hard schedule.

He has had barely 40 racing days. 30 at full speed.

Yeah, doing two Grand Tours and the Olympics within 10 weeks is nothing...
 
Aug 29, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Based on interviews with doping chemists/doctors/dealers, every body is different and as such part of doping is finding the combination that works.

Yes but that's the thing - how did they luck out that the two brit's on the squad are the best responders - shouldn't the Aussies be going "hang on... why aren't we getting the good ****?"
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Montanus said:
Sky should rest Froome imo, and let Uran and Henao be captains.

Why not go? This is pretty typical doping behaviour. The rider believes it is due to something they did, not the drugs. Someone has found the cocktail that works for him. Don't be surprised if we come to find out the UCI has their hand in building another myth in another English speaking country.

The range of outcomes starts at the bottom with Froome not being able to keep the program up, or the response declines and he is well off the Vuelta podium. The other is another 7 minute lead winning the Vuelta. I tend to believe it to be one extreme or the other.
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Montanus said:
Yeah, doing two Grand Tours and the Olympics within 10 weeks is nothing...

I didn't say that it was nothing.

What I do say that it's not a backbreaking schedule. Not for a rider who hit form first in June.
 
Jul 6, 2012
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Catwhoorg said:
Froome took it 'easier' early in the season.

Though at least in part that could be due to his illness.

The reason most GT rider refrain from doing Giro-TdF isn't that they have had a hard season before the Giro, the reason usually is that doing two GT in a row and performing 100% in both is close to impossible. But maybe Froome just went 90% in TdF...
 
Feb 10, 2010
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JibberJim said:
Yes but that's the thing - how did they luck out that the two brit's on the squad are the best responders - shouldn't the Aussies be going "hang on... why aren't we getting the good ****?"

Phil Gilbert is probably asking a similar question. I don't know with any confidence. Lots of factors at play including a complicit cycling federation.

I think we will know with some confidence much later.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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Montanus said:
Yeah, doing two Grand Tours and the Olympics within 10 weeks is nothing...
The Vuelta is pretty easy for a GT. Short stages, not many climbs in the high mountains, many teams made up of filler, riders generally more tired after a long season, or in prep mode for the Worlds.
 
Jul 6, 2012
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hrotha said:
The Vuelta is pretty easy for a GT. Short stages, not many climbs in the high mountains, many teams made up of filler, riders generally more tired after a long season, or in prep mode for the Worlds.

Still 3300 kilometers. I'm just very sceptic of the possibility to performing 100% in two GT in a row, even if it is the easier double TdF-Vuelta. Less than 3 weeks to the Vuelta from today. Froome's body must react to the intense last month of riding, being fit again in just a couple of weeks... I'm just not buying it. If Froome had been a domestique like Rogers or Porte in TdF it would have been a different thing, but he wasn't, he actually came 2nd.
 

mastersracer

BANNED
Jun 8, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
+/- 40 seconds over 44k by a "climber" among the world's best TT'ers qualifies as extra-terrestrial. You've seen this myth before. They even dropped the cadence excuse. I would have switched it up and gone the not-round chain ring excuse and then demanded a percentage of the revenue spike.



Because they were being dragged around by three or four guys for 150+ KM? This has been done to death. You insist these performances were clean, the more pragmatic folks disagree. We get it. Sky's Grand Tour squad has to be clean. But they are not.

I will make the same offer I made to another believer, let's agree to disagree for now. When the positives start for former Sky riders or the whole scam comes to light let's revisit. If it doesn't then I'm wrong. I know it's hard to believe, but a clean Sky would be a great outcome. It's not going to happen, but it would be nice.

I never claimed Sky is clean. I'm interested in inferences of doping based on performance and the consistency of those claims. I've stated that relative performance is not a good indicator in itself and requires some corroborating evidence. Absolute performance is better, and there is a lack of such evidence for the Sky doping theory. There's also a great deal of confirmation bias in these threads - Boonen's comment about a tired peloton is evidence of doping, but his comment about Sky being human is ignored. Riders being fresh at the end of hard races used to be support for doping. Now being tired is. Domination at the Tour is evidence of doping. Failure to control the Olympic road race is evidence of doping - despite the fact that the Tour doping theory predicts Olympic road race control. Rogers being ET at the Tour was evidence of doping. Now his time losses in the ITT will be interpreted as going off the program, done intentionally to not raise suspicion, etc. The doping theories here are not falsifiable because there's nothing that could count against them..
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Montanus said:
Wiggins performance today is comparable to Martin's in Copenhagen last year.

2012 Olympic ITT - 44k
1 Wiggins 50:39:34 (52.0 kph)
2 Martin +42.00
3 Froome +1:08.33
4 Phinney +1:58.53
5 Pinotti +2:09.74
10 Brajkovic +3:30.18
15 Fuglsang +3:54.59
20 Menchov +4:19.72

2011 WC ITT - 46.4k
1 Tony Martin 0:53:43.85 (51.8 kph)
2 Bradley Wiggins +1:15.83
3 Fabian Cancellara +1:20.59
4 Bert Grabsch +1:31.76
5 Jack Bobridge +2:13.86
10 Jakob Fuglsang +3:30.59
15 Taylor Phinney +3:52.58
20 Stef Clement +4:33.93

Wiggins and Phinney are two of the riders who have improved most from Copenhagen. In Phinney's case it can partly be explained with age. Wiggo really thundered away this year compared to Copenhagen, even if the consensus then was the he put in a suberb TT. In Copenhagen his average speed was 50.6 kph, today 52.0 kph. Edit: btw, Martin's average today was 51.4 kph, in the worlds last year 51.8 kph. Obviously, Martin wasn't in the same shape as last year in the worlds.

Course in Copenhagen was flatter and basically just a lot of very straight roads. Course in London was more technical in the first 3rd imo.

http://www.cyclingpowermodels.com/OlympicTimeTrial.aspx

Course profiles are in that
 
Feb 20, 2010
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Santiago Froomez will win the Vuelta by about five minutes.

Unless he catches bilharzia again, whereupon he won't score a single CQ point until June next year, just in time to win the Tour.

I'm half expecting him to win Lombardia and Emilia too now. And why not throw the Worlds in for good measure?
 
Jul 6, 2012
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titan31 said:
Course in Copenhagen was flatter and basically just a lot of very straight roads. Course in London was more technical in the first 3rd imo.

http://www.cyclingpowermodels.com/OlympicTimeTrial.aspx

Course profiles are in that

I know there are differences and I wasn't claiming they are equal. London course probably suited Wiggo a bit more than the Copenhagen course. Interesting is the average speed for the 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th place (those I checked) were more or less the same for both courses. Many riders had close to same average speed on both courses, Wiggo was one of few riders that improved his average speed quiet a lot.
 
Sep 26, 2009
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Murdochs Wasted Millions

The following from Private Eye Magazine titled Bradley Wiggins Selling Onions.

'It’s a blessing because it allows success in the sport of cycling to raise the profile of cycling in general. British success in sports cycling has, I think, far outstripped any improvements for cycling in general over the last decade, with multiple world and olympic champions on the track and the road, and now a Tour de France winner. Meanwhile cycling for transport, despite some positive stirrings, lags far behind, particularly on the evidence of national modal share patterns. Anything that puts bikes – of whatever form – on the front pages of newspapers is surely a good thing.
It’s a curse, however, primarily because plenty of British people aren’t all that interested in sport, or physical exertion – let alone the particular niche of cycling for sport. There is a danger that that the great success of our professional sports cyclists could lead to a reinforcement of the idea that ‘cycling’ necessarily involves exertion, and needs special, expensive-looking bicycles, and weird clothes, and consequently that the idea of ‘cycling’ becomes less attractive to the less athletically-minded sections of our population. Indeed, alongside hostile road conditions, I think this perception has been one of the main barriers to the uptake of cycling over the last few decades – the idea that riding a bike is necessarily a sporting activity. It’s only recently that practical – really practical bicycles, not just hybrids – have started to appear in significant numbers in bike shops.
Getting the message right is important because the current non-cycling demographic – principally women – are less likely to be interested in sport, and physical activity. The increase of cycling in London has primarily been amongst more athletically-minded young and middle-aged men, for instance. The physical demands of cycling safely on the roads of towns and cities in Britain have selectively created a cycling demographic dominated by young and middle-aged men. Those roads and streets have simultaneously put off the less physically able. In other words, these non-cyclists – the very people we need to reach – are those who are not as fast, or as powerful, and who had probably never heard of Bradley Wiggins until a week ago.
I don’t doubt that the success of Wiggins et al. will have a positive impact on British cycling, primarily for sport, but also for transport. But we should be very careful that, in trumpeting that success, we don’t put off potential cyclists by making cycling seem like an extraordinary activity. The message that riding a bike is easy, comfortable and (usually) effortless should be rammed home, and should not be lost in the promotion of cycling in the wake of sporting success.
We don’t use success in distance running to promote and publicise the ease of walking to the shops. Nor would we expect British success in motor racing to influence people’s decision to drive to the supermarket, instead of cycling, or walking, or getting the bus. It is only cycling that faces this problem of multiple meanings, and we should tread very carefully.'

http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/bradley-wiggins-selling-onions/

Good article that Mr Murdoch should read :) all that wasted £££££££££££ that Mr Brailsford has spent :)
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Montanus said:
I know there are differences and I wasn't claiming they are equal. London course probably suited Wiggo a bit more than the Copenhagen course. Interesting is the average speed for the 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th place (those I checked) were more or less the same for both courses. Many riders had close to same average speed on both courses, Wiggo was one of few riders that improved his average speed quiet a lot.

Ah sorry, I thought you were saying there wasn't much difference outside of Wiggins speed. It's even more impressive as he went much faster on a slower course imo. I think Martin's time is about right as it's not a huge drop and the course wasn't as flat or straight imo
 
Mar 22, 2011
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mastersracer said:
There's also a great deal of confirmation bias in these threads - Boonen's comment about a tired peloton is evidence of doping, but his comment about Sky being human is ignored. Riders being fresh at the end of hard races used to be support for doping. Now being tired is. Domination at the Tour is evidence of doping. Failure to control the Olympic road race is evidence of doping - despite the fact that the Tour doping theory predicts Olympic road race control. Rogers being ET at the Tour was evidence of doping. Now his time losses in the ITT will be interpreted as going off the program, done intentionally to not raise suspicion, etc. The doping theories here are not falsifiable because there's nothing that could count against them..

Hah, nice =) Bienvenue au Clinic!
 
May 27, 2010
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Ferminal said:
Wiggins did around 52kmh?

Where does that sit relative to other >50min flat TTs?

Copenhagen - Martin - 51.67kmh
Vuelta 2010 - Velits - 52.36kmh
Tour 2007 - Leipheimer - 53.08kmh

Those speeds are pedestrian.

There's a guy that was on Garmin, didn't even make the Tour squad, who could do 53.5 kph pre Garmin.

Garmin = clean by def'n.

http://pedalmag.com/?p=9677&c

Dave.