Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Caruut]

Yes, it would be very interesting to see Caruut address some substantive issues precisely and confidently. We must all have had enough of his 6th form standard epistemology.

Which substantive issues do you have in mind?

 

[No_Balls]

But we had that with Merckx, Anquetil, Coppi (49 & 52), Hinault, and yes Indurain & Contador too. Not that i doubt that something is wrong with the Sky dominance.

Which makes it even more scarier. As good as Merckx, Anquetil and Coppi were we cant be left to assume that pro cycling hasn´t evolved during this 40, 50, 60 years since they were patrons. Wiggins dominance, in a fashion not even Merckx himself could do, in a time when everything is more modern, professional and, contrary to (Skys) popular belief, the riders in general are more trained, is simply groundshaking. Even more so when none saw it coming.

Contador has of course not done what Wiggins did this year. He tried to take the Giro-Tour double but failed. The only thing avoiding Wiggins from winning the Vuelta by ease is probably just tactics from Sky not rising any suspicious doubts. Still you get the feeling the Vuelta its just up for Froome to catch.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Some point i agree. But doubles weren´t unusal by non patrons (Roche pre-EPO in 1987, Fignon in 1984 destroyed everybody everywhere, even tough he got stolen the Giro-Win), even lately Sastre did 4-2 & 1-3 in consecutive years.

Actually it´s the other way around: With Lemond (i have nothing against him otherwise) the TdF-is-all BS came. It was then mastered by Armstrong & Ullrich. They were no shows the rest of the year. Was it b/c a full blood-in-blood-out-freeze-it-3-months program was too dificult to manage for more than 1 GT a year? Very likely. My suspicions don´t come from the peak-year-around stuff, but from the transaformation.

And AC in 2010 wasn´t different than Sky this year:
Volta Algarve-1
Paris-Nice-1
Vuelta Leon-1
Dauphine-2
TdF-1

 

[Ferminal]

I would agree.

You have to say if he really was clean his performance this year January to August is the single greatest sporting run of wins ever. Not at any point did he look like losing. Ever. It's just phenomenal. Unbelievable.

Yes, I think this point needs to be made.

Wiggins season is remarkable even if we compare him to what dopers have achieved in the past.

But to do what he has done clean, in a sport rife with blood doping, is one of the greatest sporting achievements any of us will live to see.

 

[Caruut]

The year-round peak would suggest that they definitely aren't doing autologous transfusions, right?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The year-round peak would suggest that they definitely aren't doing autologous transfusions, right?

I don´t know. You tell me.

And i don´t know what to take of Sastre´s remakable 8-20-8 GT finishes in 2010, or Mario Aerts in 2007 (20-70-28, not bad for a non contender).

 

[Caruut]

I don´t know. You tell me.

And i don´t know what to take of Sastre´s remakable 8-20-8 GT finishes in 2010, or Mario Aerts in 2007 (20-70-28, not bad for a non contender).

It was meant to be a question

Is it possible to maintain the Algarve - P-N - Romandie - DL - TdF on a transfusion cycle?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

It was meant to be a question

Is it possible to maintain the Algarve - P-N - Romandie - DL - TdF on a transfusion cycle?

boosting red cell mass before an important competition only lasts a couple of weeks when the treatment is stopped and is followed by a decrease in [Hb] 1–3 weeks (depending on the type of manipulation) after the event (Audran et al., 1999; Damsgaard et al., 2006).

http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j...sg=AFQjCNG3mT5j_CpDRmDZONbhDQJG7URmYQ&cad=rja

Audran M, Gareau R, Matecki S,
Durand F, Chenard C, Sicart MT,
Marion B, Bressolle F. Effects of
erythropoietin administration in
training athletes and possible indirect
detection in doping control. Med Sci
Sports Exerc 1999: 31: 639–645.

Damsgaard R, Munch T, Morkeberg J,
Mortensen SP, Gonzalez-Alonso J.
Effects of blood withdrawal and
reinfusion on biomarkers of
erythropoiesis in humans: implications
for anti-doping strategies.
Haematol: Hematol J 2006: 91:
1006–1008.

Any reason you couldn't just infuse right before a 1 week stage race and withdraw the same amount right after it?

 

[Caruut]

Any reason you couldn't just infuse right before a 1 week stage race and withdraw the same amount right after it?

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j...sg=AFQjCNG3mT5j_CpDRmDZONbhDQJG7URmYQ&cad=rja



Any reason you couldn't just infuse right before a 1 week stage race and withdraw the same amount right after it?

But wasn´t it manipulated with Epo, then it had to freeze. Something like that. Very difficult. I am no scientic, but taking life risks for 10.000 $ stage races? May some do it anyway. But Contador? AFIR he experimented w/Clen, it came to his frozen blood, which got re-injected before/in/at the TdF. Still he dominated the non extra blood stage races. After all, it was possible in the pre EPO/Extra blood days, why shouldn´t it be now.

 

[Ferminal]

Has anyone seriously used transfusions to win shorter stage races (except where it is part of a wider preparation for a GT)?

Ok, maybe Brajkovic and Valverde did it. I don't think Sky cared so much that they were going to risk their Tour to win these races. They were all in great shape in the Dauphine but they were still visibly better in the Tour.

We seem to know very little about how tranfusions are used throughout the season.

 

[sittingbison]

...And AC in 2010 wasn´t different than Sky this year:
Volta Algarve-1
Paris-Nice-1
Vuelta Leon-1
Dauphine-2
TdF-1

2010 is the year that Contador was busted. Ergo Wiggos performance this year is therefore extremely similar to Contadors year when it was proven he doped. Except Contador could only manage a second place in Dauphine

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Has anyone seriously used transfusions to win shorter stage races (except where it is part of a wider preparation for a GT)?

Ok, maybe Brajkovic and Valverde did it. I don't think Sky cared so much that they were going to risk their Tour to win these races. They were all in great shape in the Dauphine but they were still visibly better in the Tour.

We seem to know very little about how tranfusions are used throughout the season.

Smaller bags? Marginal gains?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Has anyone seriously used transfusions to win shorter stage races (except where it is part of a wider preparation for a GT)?

Ok, maybe Brajkovic and Valverde did it. I don't think Sky cared so much that they were going to risk their Tour to win these races. They were all in great shape in the Dauphine but they were still visibly better in the Tour.

We seem to know very little about how tranfusions are used throughout the season.

Was it DR Maserati who described it, or the Hog? I can´t remember, but it must have been hidden in some of this 5000 page Armstrong threads. AFIR: It´s taken out, prepared w/Epo, frozen in fridges, re-infused in GT´s. The whole process takes 3 months, and you can´t repeate it many times since you´d lose to much blood to train. It makes perfectly sense for riders like Armstrong or Ulle, who peaked only once per season.

Basically the master dope of Sky can´t be a better blood programme. I think it´s some undedectable designer drugs like in the BALCO days. Or it´s superior training/science (or a combi of both). I am not trolling here, but i believe in Köchli...

 

[DirtyWorks]

First, I am in no way claiming LA was clean, but to say LA classics stuff is PR saga is not true, WC in Oslo at 21 on a very hard parcours is he stuff of good to great classics riders, espescially when you add inn 2nd at LBL and a win at Fleche Wallone

Except he was doping, before/during the Oslo WC. So, you've got to throw that one out too. An example of a cleaner Wonderboy was the non-spectacular Tour of the Gila performance.

I don't know what program gets them through most of the year. The next "peak" is the Vuelta a scant few weeks away. A traditional program would see some kind of steep decline in performance by then. The peloton will be riders in various states of fatigue looking for some late-season redemption and the rest tired. It's been mentioned before, maybe the UCI got the teams to gear down?

LOTS of ways to tilt the playing field.

 

[Franklin]

Indurain was my first experience with that someone at a high age won/finished at the TdF podium out of nowhere. Funny part: No experts saw it coming too.

Sorry, that;s simply not true at all. Actually one of the biggest falsifications of history if I ever saw one here!

Miguel was indeed seen as a future GT winner before 1989 and was lauded so by the international followers, not simply the Spanish. I remember reading about him in Dutch magazines and not seeing it. Now unless these Journo's were in cahoots/ were clairvoyant about Epo, Migual was most definitely seen as a future GT winner.

Ask dr. Masserati if he agrees here...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don't know what program gets them through most of the year. The next "peak" is the Vuelta a scant few weeks away. A traditional program would see some kind of steep decline in performance by then. The peloton will be riders in various states of fatigue looking for some late-season redemption and the rest tired.

And yet i am almost sure Froome will beat a scared AC by 3+ minutes.

 

[sittingbison]

And yet i am almost sure Froome will beat a scared AC by 3+ minutes...

No need to be confused Foxxy, Vroome will beat AC by only 3 minutes because he will be tired after an exhausting year. See, DW says so

...A traditional program would see some kind of steep decline in performance by then. The peloton will be riders in various states of fatigue...

 

[the big ring]

So, seriously and sincerely: how long does it take to investigate a doctor in your employ?

Any word yet of the investigative results into Leinders?

 

[Benotti69]

And yet i am almost sure Froome will beat a scared AC by 3+ minutes.

Cant see AC being scared or am i missing the sarcasm

 

[Montanus]

Froome confirms Vuelta start:

I will be lining up at the Vuelta in just two weeks time so I'll take a day off tomorrow and soak up some of the Olympic spirit around London and then I'll go back to Monaco and start training and focus on the Vuelta

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-confirms-vuelta-start

Provisional starters


Christopher Froome (GBr)
Juan Antonio Flecha Giannoni (Spa)
Sergio Luis Henao Montoya (Col)
Lars Petter Nordhaug (Nor)
Danny Pate (USA)
Ian Stannard (GBr)
Ben Swift (GBr)
Rigoberto Uran Uran (Col)
Xabier Zandio Echaide (Spa)
R Jeremy Hunt (GBr)
R Thomas Löfkvist (Swe)
R Richie Porte (Aus)
R Salvatore Puccio (Ita)

Froome, Henao, Uran and Nordhaug, they will do some damage in the mountains that's for sure.

 

[Frosty]

Froome confirms Vuelta start:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-confirms-vuelta-start

Provisional starters


Christopher Froome (GBr)
Juan Antonio Flecha Giannoni (Spa)
Sergio Luis Henao Montoya (Col)
Lars Petter Nordhaug (Nor)
Danny Pate (USA)
Ian Stannard (GBr)
Ben Swift (GBr)
Rigoberto Uran Uran (Col)
Xabier Zandio Echaide (Spa)
R Jeremy Hunt (GBr)
R Thomas Löfkvist (Swe)
R Richie Porte (Aus)
R Salvatore Puccio (Ita)

Froome, Henao, Uran and Nordhaug, they will do some damage in the mountains that's for sure.

Do you have a link for the line-up as it isnt on the cyclingnews link? That would mean no GTs at all this year for Lovkvist. Bit harsh on him, he's not a top GC contender and its a high standard in the Sky squad, but could do some good work for others like he did in the Vuelta last year.

 

[Montanus]

Do you have a link for the line-up as it isnt on the cyclingnews link? That would mean no GTs at all this year for Lovkvist. Bit harsh on him, he's not a top GC contender and its a high standard in the Sky squad, but could do some good work for others like he did in the Vuelta last year.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/2012-vuelta-a-espana-start-list

Concerning Lovkvist, he had a knee problem during Tour de Suisse, and it continued to bother him so he had to see some experts in London for help. He should be back in training and ready to compete soon, he is listed as a starter in Eneco Tour. Maybe Sky don't believe he can get in sufficient climbing shape to be able to contribute well in Vuelta. But I'll guess we will have to wait and see what the final line-up will be.

 

[Frosty]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/2012-vuelta-a-espana-start-list

Concerning Lovkvist, he had a knee problem during Tour de Suisse, and it continued to bother him so he had to see some experts in London for help. He should be back in training and ready to compete soon, he is listed as a starter in Eneco Tour. Maybe Sky don't believe he can get in sufficient climbing shape to be able to contribute well in Vuelta. But I'll guess we will have to wait and see what the final line-up will be.

Ok, thanks for that. Hadnt seen that start list

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Cant see AC being scared or am i missing the sarcasm

Could have been sarcasm. But i mean scared of being caught again which loses him the 3+ mins.

I took Basso & DiLuca at least one year being back to the (almost) old results.