Teams & Riders Team Jumbo-Visma

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I don’t know - based on what I saw in Tirreno I was expecting WVA to be the better than everyone in TJV except Kuss in high mountains. There’s a question mark about his current form but if he is in good form then he could be the very last guy with Roglic this year.

Don’t forget he was the one that dropped Bernal and Quintana last year. Comparing him to Ganna is huge underestimation IMO. If he’s not in form though, he could be only Ganna level…
We've all learned not to underestimate the cross boys by now, so maybe you are right.

My assertion is also based on, that I can't see WvA riding the Tour as a full Dom - surely he has other goals too which would compromise his reserves in the mountains.
 
Quintana as well? doesn’t matter really because it’s irrelevant for my argument. Dropping Quintana and Bernal (even if they are injured) in a stage like last years stage 15 is an indication he is the real deal when it comes to climbing. Ganna not so much (yet)...
Quintana was involved in the same crash as Bardet and Mollema, he ended up losing 1 hour in the last 7 stages due to the pain. Dropping riders as injured as Quintana and Bernal is not an indicator of being a top climber.
 
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Quintana was involved in the same crash as Bardet and Mollema, he ended up losing 1 hour in the last 7 stages due to the pain. Dropping riders as injured as Quintana and Bernal is not an indicator of being a top climber.
So you don’t think his performance in stage 15 was worthy of a real climber? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
 
I think our first big clue to how JV will ride the tour, will be if/when Vingegaard and Kuss drop massive time early.

If they do that early, rather than hanging on in GC, I would think JV has a more aggressive strategy this year, planning to send lieutenants out in front from long range.

I think they may have realised, that halfway trying to keep Dumoulin and Kuss (and at first Bennett too) in the GC last year was a mistake, because once they hit the mountains, they didn't really have much freedom of movement.
Of course Vingegaard and Kuss is supposed to lose time. Kruijswijk will be the one allowed to ride a shadow GC, but Vinge and Kuss stands no chance for a top 10.
 
Of course Vingegaard and Kuss is supposed to lose time. Kruijswijk will be the one allowed to ride a shadow GC, but Vinge and Kuss stands no chance for a top 10.
Vingegaard will lose time in order to save him for important days as well, i.e. pretty much as they did last year in the Vuelta where he didn't play a role... until the Angliru weekend where he did a huge amount of work setting the tempo in the Jumbo train in both mountain stages.

I think this time the team might not technically be as strong as last year, but in terms of morale, togetherness etc. & focus on one goal, it'll be much better. No more Tom Dumoulin meltdowns either (like last year when he disobeyed team orders in the Pyrenees).

At the beginning of the year I also wondered how Kruijswijk would work as a domestique for Roglic, but in Paris-Nice he did really well in that role (at least until the entire team blew-up on the final day), so as long as JV don't do anything too crazy (i.e. overthink the problem & make life hard for Primoz through "adventurous" tactics, such as pointlessly sending guys ahead in mountain breakaways when they should remain with their leader), everything should come down to a battle between Pog, Rog & Ineos.

And in the Tour de France, by & large it's always the strongest rider who wins. Pro Cycling has that irony whereby it's one of "the" most team oriented sports, yet at the end it usually just comes down to who can gain most time in the TT & who put in that dig & beat the last guy next to him on a climb.
 
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As in freedom for GC or green jersey?
As in "please get the yellow this year" and next year is anything Wout wants. If he also wants yellow, we work for it, if he likes green more, we work for it. If Primož gets yellow this year, I think he will go for pink next year, but he will help Wout in TDF.
 
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Would van Aert really be prepared to sacrifice off-road and classics results to get a chance to compete for yellow on Tour?

Why?

P.S. But OK, Roglič in yellow, van Aert in yellow, both Roglič and van Aert winning Paris–Roubaix. I could cope with that.
 
And in the Tour de France, by & large it's always the strongest rider who wins. Pro Cycling has that irony whereby it's one of "the" most team oriented sports, yet at the end it usually just comes down to who can gain most time in the TT & who put in that dig & beat the last guy next to him on a climb.
I didn't quote the rest as I agree with that - however this part I don't.

Being "strongest" is not just about who is the best, it's also about who can save the most strength throughout the Tour, and for that you definitely need a good team, that can constantly keep you out of the wind, get you the provisions you need, position you right for key moments, etc. - and that's before we start talking tactical use of the team.

It's very mush a "team sport", to ensure your captain is where he needs to be. with the reserves he needs, when the race is on the line.
 
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I didn't quote the rest as I agree with that - however this part I don't.

Being "strongest" is not just about who is the best, it's also about who can save the most strength throughout the Tour, and for that you definitely need a good team, that can constantly keep you out of the wind, get you the provisions you need, position you right for key moments, etc. - and that's before we start talking tactical use of the team.

It's very mush a "team sport", to ensure your captain is where he needs to be. with the reserves he needs, when the race is on the line.
I don't disagree, i.e. in theory you describe bike racing exactly as it is.

But in Tour history (at least since I started watching in the 90's), I cannot think of a winner who wasn't able to put bring the hammer down & dominate his rivals when it mattered, either in the TT or mountain finishes - irrespective of whether he had the best team or not. Oscar Pereiro perhaps? But that was a weird Tour for many reasons.

Indurain, Ulrich, Amrstrong* (asterisk because obvious reasons), Sastre, Contador, Schleck, Evans, Wiggins, Froome, Nibali, Thomas, Bernal & Pogacar all dominated their rivals when it mattered. Roglic must do the same this year, i.e. because the likelihood of JV pulling a tactical masterstroke or defeating a stronger rival is slim (& relies on chance to a certain degree, i.e. usually manifested by crashes eliminating rival GC contenders).

The simple math is if Roglic cannot put time on Pogacar in the TT or stay with him on the climbs, he likely won't win.
 
I don't disagree, i.e. in theory you describe bike racing exactly as it is.

But in Tour history (at least since I started watching in the 90's), I cannot think of a winner who wasn't able to put bring the hammer down & dominate his rivals when it mattered, either in the TT or mountain finishes - irrespective of whether he had the best team or not. Oscar Pereiro perhaps? But that was a weird Tour for many reasons.

Indurain, Ulrich, Amrstrong* (asterisk because obvious reasons), Sastre, Contador, Schleck, Evans, Wiggins, Froome, Nibali, Thomas, Bernal & Pogacar all dominated their rivals when it mattered. Roglic must do the same this year, i.e. because the likelihood of JV pulling a tactical masterstroke or defeating a stronger rival is slim (& relies on chance to a certain degree, i.e. usually manifested by crashes eliminating rival GC contenders).

The simple math is if Roglic cannot put time on Pogacar in the TT or stay with him on the climbs, he likely won't win.
Yes, but my point is, that they were able to dominate, because of all the work and protection the team afforded them.

You have to remember, usually we only get to watch the last half, or even third of the race - a lot of teamwork happens prior to that.
 
Yes, but my point is, that they were able to dominate, because of all the work and protection the team afforded them.

You have to remember, usually we only get to watch the last half, or even third of the race - a lot of teamwork happens prior to that.
Not anymore. We see the stages in their entirety nowadays.

It really depends. Usually the bigger favourite you are pre-race, the stronger team you need to control things. On the other hand, if you are flying under the radar before the race and in the early stages of the race, you can win even with a weakish team. That's what happened last year with Pogačar for example. If he was in the same pre-race situation as he is now, I don't think he would have won last year with the team he had.
 
Not anymore. We see the stages in their entirety nowadays.

It really depends. Usually the bigger favourite you are pre-race, the stronger team you need to control things. On the other hand, if you are flying under the radar before the race and in the early stages of the race, you can win even with a weakish team. That's what happened last year with Pogačar for example. If he was in the same pre-race situation as he is now, I don't think he would have won last year with the team he had.
UAE worked incredibly hard for Pogacar last year.

We just all remember him being isolated in the last part of the mountain stages, while Ineos and JV was there in numbers.

But for the first 2/3 of those mountain stages, and on all of the other stages, the team rode their hearts out for him.

The notion that he could have entered alone and won it, is absurd IMO.
 
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or Dumoulin next year... refreshed, renewed, without a chance to beat Pogacar, yet he somehow pulls it off keeps dreaming
Roglic and Pogacar chilling after laying waste to the Giro.

Dumoulin winning Tour after dropping Evenepoel on a descent.

Dutch conflicted about whether Dumoulin GOAT or to call Evenepoel overrated cause he couldn't even beat a washed up Dumoulin.
 
In my opinion some of you base your opinion, JV strength, on the fact cyclist like Kuss or Kruijswijk didn't win much stages/races this year. There could be something there, bad form. But from the Tour roster point of view i don't necessarily see it like that. They can still deliver just fine. Minus Dumoulin and the effects an operation might have on van Aert. Beyond that i don't see on why JV would be any weaker as a team compared to last year.
 
UAE worked incredibly hard for Pogacar last year.

We just all remember him being isolated in the last part of the mountain stages, while Ineos and JV was there in numbers.

But for the first 2/3 of those mountain stages, and on all of the other stages, the team rode their hearts out for him.

The notion that he could have entered alone and won it, is absurd IMO.
I never said they didn't work. You can work hard, but still be not that strong of a team.

Aru did no work for Pogi and abandoned after the first week. Formolo abandoned soon after, in the second week. De la Cruz crashed in the 1st stage (I think) and was of no use until he recovered late in the third week. Kristoff was looking for his own chances, with Laengen mainly helping him, at least for the first half of the race. Only Polanc and Marcato were fully commited to helping Pogačar. And while they did a remarkable job, those two alone do not make a strong Tour team, sorry. Give him the same amount of help this year, he has no chance at repeating the victory IMO.
 
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