Teams & Riders Team Jumbo-Visma

[Lequack]

I actually thought WvA wining on Vontoix was more epic than him winning the green jersey. There's a lot of luck involved as well with a green jersey, positioning, not getting blocked in, etc.

 

[Rackham]

I don't know what to make of this: Jumbo-Visma keeps options open: only leaders Roglic, Van Aert and Vingegaard sure of the Tour | Cycling | AD.nl

It's not like teams don't have standby riders who'll substitute one of the selected Tour riders in the event of accidents/illness etc., they do, but to essentially throw the selection wide open & declare places are up for grabs after an altitude camp is perplexing.

There's so many ways we could interpret this news.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I don't know what to make of this: Jumbo-Visma keeps options open: only leaders Roglic, Van Aert and Vingegaard sure of the Tour | Cycling | AD.nl

It's not like teams don't have standby riders who'll substitute one of the selected Tour riders in the event of accidents/illness etc., they do, but to essentially throw the selection wide open & declare places are up for grabs after an altitude camp is perplexing.

There's so many ways we could interpret this news.

Did Rohan Dennis go full Rohan Dennis in the training camp (attitude wise)?
My interpretation is that 1 or 2 riders probably underperformed at the training camp and now they are looking to see how they'll do at the upcoming races.
That said Dumoulin has his back problems and most of their other decent climbers just rode the Giro, so it's not like they have tons of alternatives.
Maybe Foss as a domestique for the mountains/hilly terrain if he found his legs at the end of the Giro, but that's about it.

 

[Luthor]

I don't know what to make of this: Jumbo-Visma keeps options open: only leaders Roglic, Van Aert and Vingegaard sure of the Tour | Cycling | AD.nl

It's not like teams don't have standby riders who'll substitute one of the selected Tour riders in the event of accidents/illness etc., they do, but to essentially throw the selection wide open & declare places are up for grabs after an altitude camp is perplexing.

There's so many ways we could interpret this news.

I think those three don't have the numbers the team expected to. Kuss would never be in doubt if he is in good form but this year he has been poor. He's not even in the Dauphine squad. The issue is, they don't really have anyone to replace Kuss. Kruijswijk gets axed imo,

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I don't know what to make of this: Jumbo-Visma keeps options open: only leaders Roglic, Van Aert and Vingegaard sure of the Tour | Cycling | AD.nl

It's not like teams don't have standby riders who'll substitute one of the selected Tour riders in the event of accidents/illness etc., they do, but to essentially throw the selection wide open & declare places are up for grabs after an altitude camp is perplexing.

There's so many ways we could interpret this news.

JV is preparing a big surprise - Pogacar joining them for the Tour. Apparently he agreed to help his friend Primoz finally win the Tour. There's one condition though - if Primoz falls all of JV guys have to work for Pog.

 

[Rackham]

Did Rohan Dennis go full Rohan Dennis in the training camp (attitude wise)?
My interpretation is that 1 or 2 riders probably underperformed at the training camp and now they are looking to see how they'll do at the upcoming races.
That said Dumoulin has his back problems and most of their other decent climbers just rode the Giro, so it's not like they have tons of alternatives.
Maybe Foss as a domestique for the mountains/hilly terrain if he found his legs at the end of the Giro, but that's about it.

I think those three don't have the numbers the team expected to. Kuss would never be in doubt if he is in good form but this year he has been poor. He's not even in the Dauphine squad. The issue is, they don't really have anyone to replace Kuss. Kruijswijk gets axed imo,

I didn't realize Kuss isn't going to the Dauphiné.

I know both Kuss & Kruijswijk were pretty below par is last year's Dauphiné but Kuss found his legs again in the Tour & Kruijswijk came good in the second half of the Vuelta. Both have another key attribute: they've proven they'll ride for Roglic (Kuss being a meme at this point on that particular subject). Dennis has been vocal himself about that same point, i.e. saying he'll ride for Roglic & Vingego.

I would have wanted JV to have everything sorted by now tbh. I mean it's also a fact "if" Rog has the same numbers as last year (in the Vuelta especially), he can win the Tour. If not, there's no yellow for the team irrespective of who they take (because Jonas isn't going to beat Pogacar unless he gets lucky). If Jumbo want the Tour win, it's about Primoz Roglic & his form.

It just seems to me based on the names on the provisional list there might be an intra-team debate regarding whether they should take a climbing team for the yellow or a more classics-esque team for green.

 

[hayneplane]

Yes but unironically

Was 2017 the one where he didn't win any stages but went on several epic raids in the mountains including finishing 2nd to Luis Leon Sanchez after a hard day over multiple Cat 1 and 2 climbs with everyone riding to get rid of him.

 

[Red Rick]

I didn't realize Kuss isn't going to the Dauphiné.

I know both Kuss & Kruijswijk were pretty below par is last year's Dauphiné but Kuss found his legs again in the Tour & Kruijswijk came good in the second half of the Vuelta. Both have another key attribute: they've proven they'll ride for Roglic (Kuss being a meme at this point on that particular subject). Dennis has been vocal himself about that same point, i.e. saying he'll ride for Roglic & Vingego.

I would have wanted JV to have everything sorted by now tbh. I mean it's also a fact "if" Rog has the same numbers as last year (in the Vuelta especially), he can win the Tour. If not, there's no yellow for the team irrespective of who they take (because Jonas isn't going to beat Pogacar unless he gets lucky). If Jumbo want the Tour win, it's about Primoz Roglic & his form.

It just seems to me based on the names on the provisional list there might be an intra-team debate regarding whether they should take a climbing team for the yellow or a more classics-esque team for green.

No the issue is clearly Dunoulin is back training and pushing godlike Watts again

 

[Rackham]

JV is preparing a big surprise - Pogacar joining them for the Tour. Apparently he agreed to help his friend Primoz finally win the Tour. There's one condition though - if Primoz falls all of JV guys have to work for Pog.

If his second condition is JV hiring Sonny Colbrelli as Primoz Roglic's bike mechanic, I might believe there's a hidden agenda.

No the issue is clearly Dunoulin is back training and pushing godlike Watts again

I know this is a joke but "if" it were true (i.e. Dumo pushing monster watts in training again), TJV might just very well be the sort of team to do exactly that (aka shoehorn Dumoulin into the Tour team after his Giro DNF).

Honestly I'm pretty cynical about the Tour de France & Jumbo's approach in particular always comes across as very corporate. I think Roglic is their one & only chance to win the thing but that's entirely dependent on his form (which he hasn't really shown this season). I also just don't think the decision to remove Kuss, Kruijswijk & Dennis as certain starters is about them per se (you get what you pay for, i.e. Dennis was 'good enough' in Romandie, as was Kruijswijk), I think it's more about the broader scattergun approach of the entire team in the Tour which is about chasing multiple objectives with multiple riders whilst hoping something sticks.

Roglic meanwhile really doesn't need a team of superstars to win a GT, i.e. give him no-name dedicated helpers & he'll do fine as long as everyone is pulling in the same direction. For certain reasons, JV seem to go into the Tour de France & heap a huge amount of pressure on themselves whilst ironically acting reticent when it comes to actually naming one leader with one objective (for example since 2020, Roglic has been announced as 'co-leader' before the 2020 Tour, 2020 Vuelta & now 2022 TDF).

For me the math is simple: if Roglic has the legs, JV needs to back him 110% or else they're insane, whilst if he doesn't have the legs it's all a moot point anyway & they might as well just chase stages.

 

[Mayomaniac]

No the issue is clearly Dunoulin is back training and pushing godlike Watts again

Nah, clearly they told Wout that he could go for stages, but not for Green because he had to support Roglic and he was like: "That doesn't work for me, brother!"
So now they need more climbing support because he was able to politic himself into a free role as a protected rider.

 

[ciranda]

I found the early preselection strange anyway. Dennis is not an obvious bodyguard type which is what they need the most + there's the cobbled stage. I would go with Teunissen, van Hooydonck, Laporte, Kuss and Gesink.

 

[Red Rick]

I found the early preselection strange anyway. Dennis is not an obvious bodyguard type which is what they need the most + there's the cobbled stage. I would go with Teunissen, van Hooydonck, Laporte, Kuss and Gesink.

Teunissen and Gesink haven't been great in forever.

 

[acm]

Kuss is going to Tour de Suisse, probably as leader.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Cycling is a sport when you can't bluff all that much. JV keeping the options open hence is a reasonable approach. If Roglič, Vingegaard and van Aert are more or less confirmed i feel that for the remaining five spots it's a good thing if the competition is still open. For 4 out of 5 spots i would say the names are more or less set. And it's up to them to keep it like that. The remaining one spot is likely still fully open.

 

[Jumbot]

Suisse has been on Kuss' program since like forever, he even talked about it at team presentation, so that says nothing about his chances of a TDF participation. I still think it'll be the Dauphine team plus Kuss, but maybe they're thinking about stage 5 or they want an extra Dutch rider for that orange cheer cape support , though for me NVH should be the first reserve

 

[RedheadDane]

The documentary is on YouTube for free now.

 

[Billie]

What they show off the teammeeting before the start of the Tour is very weird. It's basically: "Pogacar is just better than Roglic".

 

[Red Rick]

What they show off the teammeeting before the start of the Tour is very weird. It's basically: "Pogacar is just better than Roglic".

Nah they're just trying way too hard to market themselves as "teamp work is everything" team.

 

[RedheadDane]

I love the conversation during the first rest day:

WVA: Noo... I'm not gonna go for the Ventoux stage! (Not exactly what he said, but you get the gist.)

*Two days later... *

 

[Bonimenier]

What they show off the teammeeting before the start of the Tour is very weird. It's basically: "Pogacar is just better than Roglic".

That's also just the hard truth. And Roglic knows it as well. No point in denying it.

 

[Rackham]

That's also just the hard truth. And Roglic knows it as well. No point in denying it.

I'll deny it.

I think sportsmen of the level of Pogacar & Roglic are very similar in a GT, with small details & the flux of racing separating them. Now I'd still give Pogacar the edge because he's won the Tour a couple of times & hasn't shown any weakness per se (especially his interesting ability to avoid crashes & other B.S.), but it's still a bike race & anything can happen when two competitors are so evenly matched. If Roglic goes into this Tour de France with the same level he had in last year's Vuelta, il y a match, as the French say (aka we have a game).

As for JV's documentary, it's just propaganda. They're only showing us what they want us to see & everything else finished on the editing room floor. Personally I preferred the 2020 documentary (in collaboration with a Dutch TV network), i.e. with uncensored gems like Grischa Niermann shouting "c*nt Pogacar!" when he won the Grand Colombier stage.

It was more human & less corporate.

 

[Bonimenier]

I'll deny it.

I think sportsmen of the level of Pogacar & Roglic are very similar in a GT, with small details & the flux of racing separating them. Now I'd still give Pogacar the edge because he's won the Tour a couple of times & hasn't shown any weakness per se (especially his interesting ability to avoid crashes & other B.S.), but it's still a bike race & anything can happen when two competitors are so evenly matched. If Roglic goes into this Tour de France with the same level he had in last year's Vuelta, il y a match, as the French say (aka we have a game).

As for JV's documentary, it's just propaganda. They're only showing us what they want us to see & everything else finished on the editing room floor. Personally I preferred the 2020 documentary (in collaboration with a Dutch TV network), i.e. with uncensored gems like Grischa Niermann shouting "c*nt Pogacar!" when he won the Grand Colombier stage.

It was more human & less corporate.

You're denying it followed by giving Pogacar the edge, so actually you're not denying it. Great.

 

[Rackham]

You're denying it followed by giving Pogacar the edge, so actually you're not denying it. Great.

I'm denying Pogacar is intrinsically better than Roglic mano à mano in a GT, with merely details separating them. Like in 2020, Roglic crashed in the Dauphiné, hadn't touched his TT bike in 5 weeks & had more media obligations at the end of stages (as the yellow jersey wearer), thus an accumulation of problems, tactical errors & misfortune precipitated his downfall.

I give Pogacar the edge in managing these elements better so far. But I absolutely would not expect Roglic to get destroyed or even dropped by Pog on a mountain stage (like Carapaz in Le Grand-Bornand stage of the TdF 2021). As such (& considering their closeness in TT), I say it's pretty open between them if they're both injury free & on top form (because Rog doesn't have a watts deficiency versus Pog & his 'issues' which have occasionally caused problems can mostly be fixed or mitigated).

But I know how cycling works, i.e. image & aura are almost as important as base skill & Pogacar has developed a sort of new Merckx reputation which paints him as invulnerable.

Every era has these 'supermen' & the truth is often more complicated (i.e. it's often merely details which separate the best, even when one becomes dominant). I don't overestimate Roglic, just as I don't underestimate Pogacar. I expect Pogacar himself has the same approach vis-à-vis Roglic.

 

[Lequack]

Good showing today

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm denying Pogacar is intrinsically better than Roglic mano à mano in a GT, with merely details separating them. Like in 2020, Roglic crashed in the Dauphiné, hadn't touched his TT bike in 5 weeks & had more media obligations at the end of stages (as the yellow jersey wearer), thus an accumulation of problems, tactical errors & misfortune precipitated his downfall.

It wasn't smooth sailing for Pogacar either. He lost almost 1.5 minutes on crosswinds and had an uphill battle against Rog and ridiculously strong JV team. And he still did it at the end.