Teams & Riders Team Visma - Lease a Bike

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm denying Pogacar is intrinsically better than Roglic mano à mano in a GT, with merely details separating them. Like in 2020, Roglic crashed in the Dauphiné, hadn't touched his TT bike in 5 weeks & had more media obligations at the end of stages (as the yellow jersey wearer), thus an accumulation of problems, tactical errors & misfortune precipitated his downfall.

It wasn't smooth sailing for Pogacar either. He lost almost 1.5 minutes on crosswinds and had an uphill battle against Rog and ridiculously strong JV team. And he still did it at the end.

 

[CyclistAbi]

That's also just the hard truth. And Roglic knows it as well. No point in denying it.

If it would be that simple then Rogla wouldn't have won a GT, week long race and a monument. While Pogi was participating.

 

[Rackham]

It was wild seeing Rogla doing a pull in the peloton at the end of the stage there (& a pretty monster pull as well, i.e. the gap dropped sharply when he did). WvA is disappointed though (he believes they miscalculated):

Obviously this sort of screw-up is kind of funny & harmless in the Dauphiné but people won't be laughing next month if the same sh*t happens. Or to be more precise at least no JV fan will be laughing because I'm sure others will.

 

[CyclistAbi]

From the stage win perspective van Aert could be a bit disappointed but beyond that i feel that they did an OK job. That is keeping van Aert in green and keeping the GC fight where it needs to be. It would in my opinion be foolish if they would waste more energy today. Just to win the stage. It was up to the other teams to do more work. In regards to chasing down the breakaway. JV leaving the initiative to them was in my opinion a good call.

 

[CyclistAbi]

From Tour perspective this is i guess a valuable lesson they learned. That is i feel that it is important for them to realize they can't have green, yellow and stage wins and ... They are great but even they need to sacrifice something and to be conservative when burning matches. They did that today.

 

[Rackham]

From Tour perspective this is i guess a valuable lesson they learned. That is i feel that it is important for them to realize they can't have green, yellow and stage wins and ... They are great but even they need to sacrifice something and to be conservative when burning matches. They did that today.

Let's call it what it was: total B.S.... albeit harmless B.S., so onwards & upwards.

The only 'harm' seems to be the harm done to the composure of the most fanatical Belgian fans on Twitter who're resurrecting the spectre of Imola 2020 within their anxiety filled Tweets this evening. Funny stuff as always.

I also can't wait for tomorrow, i.e. what are we going to get? Breakaway win? (because the peloton knows Rog can smash the final climb) or will JV commit their forces to winning the stage & taking back the jersey before the ITT?

I mean honestly the way this route is designed they really can't avoid the jersey unless they deliberately take their foot of the gas tomorrow & Wednesday in the ITT. But there's a point where that becomes self defeating because like everyone else fighting for GC, they need to gain time when the terrain suits them (which is the case in the next two stages).

 

[Oldermanish]

I'm denying Pogacar is intrinsically better than Roglic mano à mano in a GT, with merely details separating them. Like in 2020, Roglic crashed in the Dauphiné, hadn't touched his TT bike in 5 weeks & had more media obligations at the end of stages (as the yellow jersey wearer), thus an accumulation of problems, tactical errors & misfortune precipitated his downfall.

I give Pogacar the edge in managing these elements better so far. But I absolutely would not expect Roglic to get destroyed or even dropped by Pog on a mountain stage (like Carapaz in Le Grand-Bornand stage of the TdF 2021). As such (& considering their closeness in TT), I say it's pretty open between them if they're both injury free & on top form (because Rog doesn't have a watts deficiency versus Pog & his 'issues' which have occasionally caused problems can mostly be fixed or mitigated).

But I know how cycling works, i.e. image & aura are almost as important as base skill & Pogacar has developed a sort of new Merckx reputation which paints him as invulnerable.

Every era has these 'supermen' & the truth is often more complicated (i.e. it's often merely details which separate the best, even when one becomes dominant). I don't overestimate Roglic, just as I don't underestimate Pogacar. I expect Pogacar himself has the same approach vis-à-vis Roglic.

Hopefully this analysis isn't taking too much emotional energy out of the fans. The race is a month a way and we need to pace ourselves.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Hopefully this analysis isn't taking too much emotional energy out of the fans. The race is a month a way and we need to pace ourselves.

Definitely. Some fans are peaking too early and won't be in good enough form to analyse Pogi's watt bombs in July.

 

[Rackham]

Hopefully this analysis isn't taking too much emotional energy out of the fans. The race is a month a way and we need to pace ourselves.

Definitely. Some fans are peaking too early and won't be in good enough form to analyse Pogi's watt bombs in July.

There's an infallible contingency plan & it's called La Vuelta.

So when July goes to sh*t, Spain & number 4 awaits. Thus, no emotional fringale.

In all seriousness, I never get depressed by a result or defeat (this is sport & it demands a winner), but the manner of the defeats (& occasional injuries) can be depressing. If Rog is to lose the TdF, I want to see a fair fight & a post race fist bump with Pog. May the best guy win. What I don't want is La Planche des Belles Filles part 2 because that sort of crap ruins the overall experience (JV tactical screw ups are in the same category as well).

Fun for neutrals & Pog fans, not so fun for #teamRogla.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What I don't want is La Planche des Belles Filles part 2 because that sort of crap ruins the overall experience

Can I get an amen?

Yes, toby, I know, this year they're actually using it in the fashion it is best suited, as a week 1 MTF that will open up 30-45 second gaps, just like in 2017. But there are other climbs in France, you know.

 

[tobydawq]

Can I get an amen?

Yes, toby, I know, this year they're actually using it in the fashion it is best suited, as a week 1 MTF that will open up 30-45 second gaps, just like in 2017. But there are other climbs in France, you know.

How was it misused in 2020?

For the record, I also don't really understand why it must be included more than every other year (or every other year for that matter).

 

[Netserk]

, just like in 2017.

And all the other times, bar 2020.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And all the other times, bar 2020.

I'm fine in principle with its use as a stage 5-7 kind of climb, but personally I feel like we should have already had the "sort out who will compete and who won't" stage by the time we get to the second weekend, so its more recent usage is better. 2012 it was too late for the first mountain stage unless they'd already had a decent length TT, 2014 the cobbles had already done that job (plus of course we'd already lost most of the favourites other than Nibali by that point), 2019 use was fine, and 2020 was the only real ITT of the race and was still finishing on a mountain, which is, in and of itself, an absolutely horrible use of the climb that people are quick to forgive because of the shock of the result (largely created by Jumbo's miserable racing throughout - and no, even if you say that Rogla couldn't have dropped Pogačar anywhere or if Roglič had actually chased him in stage 9 rather than judge Bernal and Quintana the bigger threat, if the race is more broken up and less conservatively raced and Pogačar is still as close as he was on GC, then probably the shock of the outcome that day is massively lessened compared to what kind of drama we saw unfold then). If there was another ITT that was flatter, then that stage would be fine in a vacuum, but as the only TT of the race, it makes for a brutally imbalanced route that only serves to encourage the kind of hyper-conservative racing that plagued much of that edition, at least among the GC contenders (the points jersey battle really benefited that edition in more ways than one).

Edit: of course one of the biggest problems in placing this as a stage is the geography of France. Placing it around stage 8 or 9 means that the first week will have by necessity been mostly flat, so would have likely needed something like a mid-length TT to separate the field out by the time they get to PDBF, and I feel that that would essentially be treading on the toes of the role for which the climb is best suited, and if you've already split the field out by that point, you could do something more interesting with the Vosges with a second weekend mountain stage in that case. Although at this stage you could argue that more or less anything other than a PDBF MTF in the Vosges would be more interesting just from a novelty point of view.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Rackham

I get it on why some might feel JV messed up today. As in a way they did. They didn't win the stage. But this is a rather superficial take on it. In addition this race has 8 stages and it would be a bit over the top if JV would win them all. Would made me question their tactics.

Anyway the way they did it is in my opinion OK. That is JV likely could have win this stage by fully committing to that goal. In my opinion it's a good thing they didn't. Their main objective is for van Aert in green and for JV to take overall. Not just on this race but on the Tour. Personally i don't believe that can achieve that by always racing 100%. And to put even more burden on themselves. Like for example investing much effort in winning rather indecisive stages or needlessly defending yellow.

There is one thing that goes a bit against what i said. And that is they should likely never allow for Pogi to take yellow. Still here there is some room for tactics. For example to let him go and to regroup after to reduce the damage. And for example on the next day to profit from that. But this is rather risky approach and best to avoid it if possible.

 

[Red Rick]

They really don't need to pull breaks back to win green. Van Aert just needs to outsprint his competition or survive when sprinters don't.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Exactly. That is on why it was on others today to do something. And JV to take the laid back approach.

 

[Bonimenier]

Exactly. That is on why it was on others today to do something. And JV to take the laid back approach.

If it was in the Tour I totally agree. There will be plenty of teams that have an objective that suits van Aert at the end of the day as well. But this is the Dauphiné, and not only is van Aert by far the most suited rider for this kind of finish here, but JV is also miles ahead on other teams strengthwise. Would it really have hurt them to chase 10 km extra with Benoot or Laporte instead of trying to play poker with Ineos and refusing to add an extra guy?

 

[CyclistAbi]

If it was in the Tour I totally agree. There will be plenty of teams that have an objective that suits van Aert at the end of the day as well. But this is the Dauphiné, and not only is van Aert by far the most suited rider for this kind of finish here, but JV is also miles ahead on other teams strengthwise. Would it really have hurt them to chase 10 km extra with Benoot or Laporte instead of trying to play poker with Ineos and refusing to add an extra guy?

In my opinion it would likely hurt them yes. That is van Aert would more or less always like to ride aggressive. It is in his blood. Seeing on how they raced today and for him to basically suffer. By not doing all that much. In my opinion this sort of experience gained on such races are much needed. This after all is the preparation for the Tour and the goals are well known.

 

[Bonimenier]

In my opinion it would likely hurt them yes. That is van Aert would more or less always like to ride aggressive. It's in his blood. Seeing on how they raced today and for him to basically suffer. By not doing all that much. In my opinion this sort of experience gained on such races are much needed.

How? How on earth would it have hurt them to chase 10km more? You really think that would make a difference for this overpowered team here in the Dauphiné? What are you on about?

 

[CyclistAbi]

How? How on earth would it have hurt them to chase 10km more? You really think that would make a difference for this overpowered team here in the Dauphiné? What are you on about?

They would win the stage, keep the green and yellow and feel good about themselves?

P.S. And Pogi watching it back home would think to himself i got this.

 

[yaco]

I doubt that JV have to do much with a 31km ITT - Roglic rides at his normal level and then he will put 1+ into his rivals.

 

[Rackham]

@Rackham

I get it on why some might feel JV messed up today. As in a way they did. They didn't win the stage. But this is a rather superficial take on it. In addition this race has 8 stages and it would be a bit over the top if JV would win them all. Would made me question their tactics.

Anyway the way they did it is in my opinion OK. That is JV likely could have win this stage by fully committing to that goal. In my opinion it's a good thing they didn't. Their main objective is for van Aert in green and for JV to take overall. Not just on this race but on the Tour. Personally i don't believe that can achieve that by always racing 100%. And to put even more burden on themselves. Like for example investing much effort in winning rather indecisive stages or needlessly defending yellow.

There is one thing that goes a bit against what i said. And that is they should likely never allow for Pogi to take yellow. Still here there is some room for tactics. For example to let him go and to regroup after to reduce the damage. And for example on the next day to profit from that. But this is rather risky approach and best to avoid it if possible.

I don't want to rehash yesterday again & again (the following morning) because it was really no big deal. I mean there's people like Chris Horner out there who provide way more 'entertaining' insight into dissecting tactics-gone-wrong than I do (he covers this stage in his latest upload).

But the issue wasn't the "do or do not" choice for JV between letting the jersey go or keeping it/fighting for the stage, it was the game of poker they played, i.e. do the minimum to save strength & then when no one took the bait in the peloton to pull back the breakaway, Grischa hit the panic button & Roglic himself pulled in the wind at the front to save WvA's jersey. That was a sure WTF moment.

Considering Benoot & Laporte had been riding with one finger in the nose, it's not normal for the GC favorite to be the one who does the pulling right at the end when it could have been so easily avoided with a teeny-weeny bit of work by the rest of the team earlier. This mustn't be repeated at the Tour.

 

[tobydawq]

I don't want to rehash yesterday again & again (the following morning) because it was really no big deal. I mean there's people like Chris Horner out there who provide way more 'entertaining' insight into dissecting tactics-gone-wrong than I do (he covers this stage in his latest upload).

But the issue wasn't the "do or do not" choice for JV between letting the jersey go or keeping it/fighting for the stage, it was the game of poker they played, i.e. do the minimum to save strength & then when no one took the bait in the peloton to pull back the breakaway, Grischa hit the panic button & Roglic himself pulled in the wind at the front to save WvA's jersey. That was a sure WTF moment.

Considering Benoot & Laporte had been riding with one finger in the nose, it's not normal for the GC favorite to be the one who does the pulling right at the end when it could have been so easily avoided with a teeny-weeny bit of work by the rest of the team earlier. This mustn't be repeated at the Tour.

Was it a WTF moment that Roglic took a pull for a couple of hundred metres when there was a break ten seconds up the road and Van Aert was the obvious winner from the peloton? Lol.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Rackham

I have nothing against Horner and i feel it makes sense to promote his videos. For him to make some money on it or to gain sponsors. Maybe some team to hire him as a consultant? If he would be riding on the back seat of some car hopefully for camera to be in that car. As someone that was a part of the peloton he has every right to do that. As for his content. If it would be to dry it wouldn't sell. Hence you must result to occasionally being a knucklehead. Eurosport commentary thread would likely ignite, though.

As for the poker part and conserving energy. I agree. As for the panic mode. Likely there was a brief moment of realization breakaway has this. Still in last 500 meters you do need to stretch your legs a bit in a bunch sprint stage. Rogla being in front could be perceived as needles wasting of energy. As it was flat area. If it would be steep then OK. But even then Rogla should occasionally result to not stomping. If it's about some secondary goals and he would waste too much energy on it.

Hence i agree that yesterday there should be no panic button at the end of the stage. They should just let it go when they realized the win is not for grabs anymore.

 

[CyclistAbi]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K40o7eiFEOQ


A video has apparently leaked from the JV tactics training camp 2022.