Team Rankings - GT qualificiation

[Anonymous]

Can anyone with a good knowledge clarify the ruling on this. Obviously from next year the top 17 teams in the rankings from this season get an automatic GT spot.

The standings are currently as follows:

1 Astana (KAZ) 976
2 Saxo Bank (DEN) 790
3 Team Katusha (RUS) 739
4 Rabobank (NED) 695
5 Liquigas - Doimo (ITA) 667
6 Team HTC - Columbia (USA) 657
7 BMC Racing Team (USA) 633
8 Omega Pharma - Lotto (BEL) 621
9 Caisse d'Epargne (SPA) 586
10 Garmin - Transitions (USA) 586
11 RadioShack (USA) 573
12 Lampre - Farnese Vini (ITA) 506
13 Cervélo TestTeam (SWI) 464
14 Euskaltel - Euskadi (SPA) 428
15 Quick Step (BEL) 312
16 Sky Professional Cycling Team (GBR) 291
17 Androni Giocattoli - Serramenti PVC Diquigiovanni (ITA) 243
18 AG2R - La Mondiale (FRA) 198
19 Cofidis, le Crédit en Ligne (FRA) 148
20 BBox - Bouygues Telecom (FRA) 147
21 Acqua & Sapone - D'Angelo & Antenucci (ITA) 134
22 Vacansoleil (NED) 123
23 Colnago - CSF Inox (IRL) 119
24 Team Milram (ITA) 108
25 La Française des Jeux (FRA) 96

although, and heres the twist I didnt know about. Ive just been told its based on squads at the end of the year, so signings and transfers will effect it. Ie, vacon will pick up sastre's points etc. can anyone confirm if this is the case, If it is, it really makes things very confusing, and also leads to the possibility of teams picking up riders who have rankings points.

 

[ingsve]

although, and heres the twist I didnt know about. Ive just been told its based on squads at the end of the year, so signings and transfers will effect it. Ie, vacon will pick up sastre's points etc. can anyone confirm if this is the case, If it is, it really makes things very confusing, and also leads to the possibility of teams picking up riders who have rankings points.

No, that's (probably) not how it will work. People are mixing up two different things. For entry into GTs it is the ranking you listed that will be used (or rather the ranking after all PT races are done).

What people are mixing it up with is the new criteria that will be used to determine what teams will get a PT license. That is where they will look on how strong the team will be during next year and that is also based on the same points but it will take into account where the rider will be next year and not where they were when they got the points. This is also the system that will look back two years.

 

[Anonymous]

No, that's (probably) not how it will work. People are mixing up two different things. For entry into GTs it is the ranking you listed that will be used (or rather the ranking after all PT races are done).

thats what i thought, need to get this clarified somewhere but as you say the same as I thought im tempted to believe the others are just confused.

Few scare stories in british press today that sky may drop out of the top 17 and not get in the tour. Think the press were bored, realistically it would mean the french teams picking up as many points between now and october than they have done all season. unlikely.

bottom of the table makes interesting reading
29 Footon - Servetto (SPA) 37
30 Skil - Shimano (NED) 2 < 2 whole points

 

[ingsve]

thats what i thought, need to get this clarified somewhere but as you say the same as I thought im tempted to believe the others are just confused.

Few scare stories in british press today that sky may drop out of the top 17 and not get in the tour. Think the press were bored, realistically it would mean the french teams picking up as many points between now and october than they have done all season. unlikely.

bottom of the table makes interesting reading
29 Footon - Servetto (SPA) 37
30 Skil - Shimano (NED) 2 < 2 whole points

They not only have to pick up that many points, but in fact that many points more than Team Sky and Sky is likely to get some points at least during Eneco Tour if things go the way most people expect.

I wouldn't mind if Ag2R moves past Androni though since it's better to have PT teams get guaranteed spots or else they will hog the wild cards in many races.

 

[theswordsman]

Back before the UCI announced changes, the ASO announced that the top seventeen in the end of year rankings (final after Lombardia) would get automatic invitations for the 2011 TdF.

This from a June press release of the UCI Management Comittee

The Management Committee also defined the regulations for participation in the 2011 UCI World Calendar events.
The UCI ProTeams – of which there will be a maximum of 18 – will be obliged to participate in UCI ProTour races. The top 17 UCI Professional Continental Teams of the 2010 UCI World Ranking will also have the right to participate.
As for the Monument events, these shall invite the 17 best teams of the 2010 UCI World Ranking.

This formula represents a compromise with the organisers of Monument events. The UCI sincerely regrets that these organisers ultimately rejected the principle of the automatic participation of UCI ProTeams in their events. However, negotiations with the organisers led to an agreement, reached in particular as a result of an increased consideration of teams’ sporting values, one of the organisers’ main requests. The UCI has nevertheless decided to retain the principle it has adopted for its system of awarding UCI ProTour licences.

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENe...p?MenuId=MTI2Mjc&LangId=1&1602917X57X56Page=3

Following an earlier announcement expanding coverage for the biological passport from those that wanted wildcard status to all second division teams, the governing body has taken the decision that the top 17 Pro Continental teams in the 2010 UCI World Ranking will now be eligible for wildcard selection in UCI World Calendar events. Furthermore, the Monument events will still give race organizers latitude for discretion, but now the 17 best teams from the 2010 UCI World Ranking will benefit from automatic selection.

Changes reflect a compromise with organizers of the what the UCI refers to as "Monument" events, which are labeled as "Historic" on the World Calendar and amount to more races than the typical use of the word that referes to the five Monument one-day Classics. Those races include organizers that were not willing to give up their say in selecting wildcard teams for their event. Those races, combined with the ProTour events, make up the UCI World Ranking.

The statement read "The UCI sincerely regrets that these organisers ultimately rejected the principle of the automatic participation of UCI ProTeams in their events. However, negotiations with the organisers led to an agreement, reached in particular as a result of an increased consideration of teams’ sporting values, one of the organisers’ main requests. The UCI has nevertheless decided to retain the principle it has adopted for its system of awarding UCI ProTour licences."

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...2011-team-selection-with-race-organizers.aspx

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I searched for "team shack not invited" and didn't come up with anything. So... Interesting! Team Shack at #11, but no invite to the Giro by RCS or to the Vuelta Espan'a by Unipublic. I'm guessing the lineups that Shack planned to send didn't stack up to an 11 ranking. Any other ideas?

 

[ingsve]

I searched for "team shack not invited" and didn't come up with anything. So... Interesting! Team Shack at #11, but no invite to the Giro by RCS or to the Vuelta Espan'a by Unipublic. I'm guessing the lineups that Shack planned to send didn't stack up to an 11 ranking. Any other ideas?

This is the qualification for 2011 so it has nothing to do with what happened this year. Radioshack with their 11th spot will get automatic invites next year.

 

[stefrees]

I think sky will be fine, ebh will pick them up enough points between now and the end of season- sky are really targeting the 2 Canadian pt races I think?

 

[Ryaguas]

I think sky will be fine, ebh will pick them up enough points between now and the end of season- sky are really targeting the 2 Canadian pt races I think?

Yeah that is the most likely... Also I'll put Flecha for some stages in La Vuelta

 

[Vonn Brinkman]

I think sky will be fine, ebh will pick them up enough points between now and the end of season- sky are really targeting the 2 Canadian pt races I think?

Definitely, Sky has almost 100 points more than 18th placed Ag2r, so they will easily be fine.
I'm wondering though, will the ASO be happy to have so little french teams in the Tour with this new rule?

 

[ingsve]

Definitely, Sky has almost 100 points more than 18th placed Ag2r, so they will easily be fine.
I'm wondering though, will the ASO be happy to have so little french teams in the Tour with this new rule?

I think it will only mean that it will be very hard for non-french teams to get a wildcard next year. I'm guessing we'll see Schlecklux in the Tour but not Geox or Vacansoleil.

 

[jaylew]

. I'm guessing we'll see Schlecklux in the Tour but not Geox or Vacansoleil.

With Menchov(now confirmed) and Sastre, Geox will be there. Regarding the top 17 rule, I'm starting to lean back your way again but I'm not fully convinced yet as I still see conflicting information.

Footon-Servetto scored just six victories in the 2010 season, only one of which was at the ProTour level. Its ProTour license expires at the end of this season, and without bringing in the points which transfer with riders it faced a difficult task in getting invitations to the sport's top races. It currently sits 29th out of 30 teams on the UCI's world rankings with only Skil-Shimano ranked lower.

That is from CN. It implies that the points do transfer for next year. I guess you could interpret that as meaning "points" towards a PT license, but I don't think there is such a thing so to me that means UCI points which they then mention in the next sentence. At this point I'm thoroughly confused.

 

[stefrees]

With Menchov(now confirmed) and Sastre, Geox will be there. Regarding the top 17 rule, I'm starting to lean back your way again but I'm not fully convinced yet as I still see conflicting information.



That is from CN. It implies that the points do transfer for next year. I guess you could interpret that as meaning "points" towards a PT license, but I don't think there is such a thing so to me that means UCI points which they then mention in the next sentence. At this point I'm thoroughly confused.

It's the top 17 as of end of this year, I'm certain of it

 

[ingsve]

With Menchov(now confirmed) and Sastre, Geox will be there. Regarding the top 17 rule, I'm starting to lean back your way again but I'm not fully convinced yet as I still see conflicting information.

Ya, with Menchov there is a bigger chance. With 5 wild card spots possible (if they go with 22 teams again) then it's possible it may end up being Schlecklux, Geox and three french teams. That will still make life difficult for a lot of teams who want to ride the Tour.

That is from CN. It implies that the points do transfer for next year. I guess you could interpret that as meaning "points" towards a PT license, but I don't think there is such a thing so to me that means UCI points which they then mention in the next sentence. At this point I'm thoroughly confused.

Yes, there are points that go towards the PT license. When comparing the various teams that have applied they will look mainly on the strength of the team for next year. To have a fair criteria to go by this will be based on the points from the UCI world ranking and from the continental tours for the riders contracted for next year. This will go back two years.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Until I saw that list, I hadn't realised if any US teams wear red kit, the UCI gave them 500 points head start.
I mean, come on, BMC 7th, WTF? Can't see how the Shack have managed to accumulate twice the points of Sky, either.
Shiite system, but the UCI will love that league table.

 

[ingsve]

Until I saw that list, I hadn't realised if any US teams wear red kit, the UCI gave them 500 points head start.
I mean, come on, BMC 7th, WTF? Can't see how the Shack have managed to accumulate twice the points of Sky, either.
Shiite system, but the UCI will love that league table.

Hopefully the ranking will be a little better next year. If I recall correctly they will also give points for lesser races but only fewer points than for PT races. It's so silly now that only perhaps one fifth of all races a team rides each year counts for them.

 

[Anonymous]

Until I saw that list, I hadn't realised if any US teams wear red kit, the UCI gave them 500 points head start.
I mean, come on, BMC 7th, WTF? Can't see how the Shack have managed to accumulate twice the points of Sky, either.
Shiite system, but the UCI will love that league table.

its stupid. compare it with the cq ranking (uci ranks in brackets)

1. Team HTC - Columbia PRT 8063 (6)
2. Team Saxo Bank PRT 7467 (2)
3. Liquigas - Doimo PRT 7387 (5)
4. Team Katusha PRT 6540 (3)
5. Rabobank PRT 6364 (4)
6. Team RadioShack PRT 5950 (11)
7. Astana PRT 5813 (1)
8. Garmin - Transitions PRT 5779 (10)
9. Caisse d'Epargne PRT 5481 (9)
10. Sky Professional Cycling Team PRT 4912 (16)
11. Lampre - Farnese Vini PRT 4908 (12)
12. Vacansoleil Pro Cycling Team PROF 4666 (22)
13. Euskaltel - Euskadi PRT 4514 (14)
14. OmegaPharma - Lotto PRT 4497 (8)
15. Ag2r - La Mondiale PRT 4487 (18)
16. Quick Step PRT 3930 (15)
17. Bbox - Bouygues Telecom PROF 3923 (20)
18. FDJ PRT 3842 (25)
19. Cofidis, le Credit en Ligne PROF 3794 (19)
20. BMC Racing Team PROF (7)


the more obvious anomilies are in bold

 

[tgsgirl]

its stupid. compare it with the cq ranking (uci ranks in brackets)

the more obvious anomilies are in bold

I'd say this is a way more obvious anomaly than Lotto:

7. Astana PRT 5813 (1)

 

[Sneekes]

It's the top 17 as of end of this year, I'm certain of it

I thought you were right, but Robbie McEwen disagrees:

"There are several teams looking to sign riders. As well as the Aussie team, there's Geox, and other teams looking for ProTour points so they can secure a place in the top 17 of the UCI world ranking and an automatic invitation to the big races. I've got 105 points and I'm in the top 40 of the rankings."

from today's CN article
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcewen-close-to-deciding-team-for-2011

 

[stefrees]

I thought you were right, but Robbie McEwen disagrees:

"There are several teams looking to sign riders. As well as the Aussie team, there's Geox, and other teams looking for ProTour points so they can secure a place in the top 17 of the UCI world ranking and an automatic invitation to the big races. I've got 105 points and I'm in the top 40 of the rankings."

from today's CN article
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcewen-close-to-deciding-team-for-2011

But nothing in the uci rules suggesting this?

 

[kurtinsc]

its stupid. compare it with the cq ranking (uci ranks in brackets)

1. Team HTC - Columbia PRT 8063 (6)
2. Team Saxo Bank PRT 7467 (2)
3. Liquigas - Doimo PRT 7387 (5)
4. Team Katusha PRT 6540 (3)
5. Rabobank PRT 6364 (4)
6. Team RadioShack PRT 5950 (11)
7. Astana PRT 5813 (1)
8. Garmin - Transitions PRT 5779 (10)
9. Caisse d'Epargne PRT 5481 (9)
10. Sky Professional Cycling Team PRT 4912 (16)
11. Lampre - Farnese Vini PRT 4908 (12)
12. Vacansoleil Pro Cycling Team PROF 4666 (22)
13. Euskaltel - Euskadi PRT 4514 (14)
14. OmegaPharma - Lotto PRT 4497 (8)
15. Ag2r - La Mondiale PRT 4487 (18)
16. Quick Step PRT 3930 (15)
17. Bbox - Bouygues Telecom PROF 3923 (20)
18. FDJ PRT 3842 (25)
19. Cofidis, le Credit en Ligne PROF 3794 (19)
20. BMC Racing Team PROF (7)


the more obvious anomilies are in bold

The question is... would teams approach things differently if that were already the system for getting a GT bid?

The only races Cadel Evans rode this year for BMC that WEREN'T ones that scored pro-tour points were Gran Premio dell'Insubria (1 day), Critérium International (3 stages), and 3 post tour criteriums. That's 7 days of racing (really just 4 of "real" racing) that weren't in PT point scoring events.

Other teams seemed to do similar things... focusing on the races they needed to do well in to score PT points. If the non-PT races scored points as well... I'm not as convinced the results in those races would be the same.

I think it's a good move... but I'm not sure it's an argument that Vacansoleil deserves a spot. Would Bozic have faced the same level of competition at the Ettoile Bessages if the points counted toward making the tour? Maybe a Theo Bos shows up? There are several other results that aren't exactly against top notch fields.

 

[royalpig180]

But nothing in the uci rules suggesting this?

Yes there is. Signing him would contribute his points to the rankings the UCI will use to determine which teams are given ProTour Licenses, and thus automatic entry into protour events (obviously this does not include GTs). He would not contribute to the top-17 auto-GT entry bit as that is based solely on this year's rankings.

 

[ingsve]

I thought you were right, but Robbie McEwen disagrees:

"There are several teams looking to sign riders. As well as the Aussie team, there's Geox, and other teams looking for ProTour points so they can secure a place in the top 17 of the UCI world ranking and an automatic invitation to the big races. I've got 105 points and I'm in the top 40 of the rankings."

from today's CN article
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcewen-close-to-deciding-team-for-2011

Like a lot of people Robbie is mixing up two different things, PT status and monument entry. I wonder if all the teams have a full grasp of things. They could be signing rides with the promise that they will get a GT invite while mixing things up totally and screwing the rider over.

 

[stefrees]

Yes there is. Signing him would contribute his points to the rankings the UCI will use to determine which teams are given ProTour Licenses, and thus automatic entry into protour events (obviously this does not include GTs). He would not contribute to the top-17 auto-GT entry bit as that is based solely on this year's rankings.

Ah right cheers I get it now. But isn't entry into pro tour based on four different criteria? Not just top 17 bearing in mind length of various teams licences?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

The UCI have publiched two mutually contradictory sets of admission criteria for Grand Tours and Monuments.

On the one hand they have said that any team who finish in the top 17 of the rankings have guaranteed entry into those races in 2011. This is not dependent on who they have in their squad by January 2011, but on who rode, and won points, for them in 2010.

On the other hand they have said that any non ProTour team will be limited as to how many of those events they will be able to enter as they will have only 18 points to spend, and entry to the 3 GTs alone would cost 21 points.

UCI seem to me to have two ways out of this: the honourable one would be to clarify that the 18 point rule was a proposal, but not taken up (the Press Release from the meeting at which it was to be discussed was silent on the issue)

Their second way out is in three parts: (a) be greatly relieved that Cervelo are not running a team next year, (b) make sure that BMC get a ProTour Licence, and (c) hope and pray that Nico Roche has a good Vuelta, or that AG2R otherwise get enough points in the last four events to overhaul Androni Giacattoli for 17th place. That way their inconsistencies will become redundant, and they will never have to face up to the consequences of such ill managed policies.

How litigious are the management teams behind BMC or Androni likely to be in the case of (b) or (c) not happening?