Team Visma LAB

[Sciatic]

What? 🙄

It’s not that outlandish. I don’t know how long a rider has to respond to a knock at their door by a surprise drug tester, but if you can put them off for 20 minutes the rider (probably would need help) could push a bag of IV saline to dllute concentration of PEDs in bloodstream and IV diuretic to flush as much as possible out of their system before the test. Still would be difficult to pull off, and so not likely (but still possible).

 

[noob]

I just feel bad for him. I doubt anything good can come out of this.

 

[skippo12]

What is Geert Leinders doing these days? Living in Niermann's basement? Cooking up the special july juice?

 

[Rob5091]

I just feel bad for him. I doubt anything good can come out of this.

Unless he's taken some tainted supplement, this is definitely not good for him.

As has been pointed out, it was an out of competition test which was seemingly done at an unusual time . Also it was pointed out that a diuretic can also be a substance that increases the plasma volume of blood. We await further information to pass judgement, but if Jumbo are going to throw him to the wolves, then I suppose we'll get the old "bad apple" excuse.

 

[Walter1234]

IV diuretics (in studies of heart patients begin working within 10-30 of starting. Can you put off an out of competition tester at your door for 20 minutes and then take test?

Yes and now; it depends.... They ring at your door a few time; if you don't show up at the door they might call you on your phone. The tester has to do a reasonable attempt to find you. This during the 1 hour you indicated you would be at home -or another place- as per your whereabouts. 20 minutes is on the limit I think before the tester could conclude you where not there... But as a rider you don't want to be limited in your movement too much; so you mostly indicate a time early in the day or late in the evening where your are sure to be at home (in your morning routine or still in bed or in your late evening routine). It would be hard just to keep de door closed for 20 minutes at that time...
I also know of a rider during his training ride being phoned by a tester; the tester asks where you are, he joins the rider and escorts during his training with his car to the riders home. Of course then the 20 minutes would be difficult to get.... -although they might give you time to shower before the test...
If the rider wouldn't pick up his phone, the tester would just wait at his home until the training is done... Somebody can warn you the tester is waiting for you. Then you can have your 20 minutes...

 

[magliaroz]

Unless he's taken some tainted supplement, this is definitely not good for him.

As has been pointed out, it was an out of competition test which was seemingly done at an unusual time . Also it was pointed out that a diuretic can also be a substance that increases the plasma volume of blood. We await further information to pass judgement, but if Jumbo are going to throw him to the wolves, then I suppose we'll get the old "bad apple" excuse.

That is not a very good excuse considering JV more than any team claims they pay attention to any little detail. How can you miss something like that?

 

[hrotha]

I'm sure the testers see an amusingly high number of people coincidentally taking a long shower or a massive dump at the worst time

 

[Rob5091]

That is not a very good excuse considering JV more than any team claims they pay attention to any little detail. How can you miss something like that?

The PR message will be a "bad apple", but what about Jumbo missing Roglic's back injury -
Roglic's physio said, "It wasn't until Primož took a magnetic scan in Monte Carlo on his own initiative and sent me a picture that we realized that the injury was not so innocent," he revealed, connecting the dots between Roglic's diagnosis." see -

Roglic's physiotherapist talks about Jumbo-Visma secrecy regarding injuries and misdiagnosis: "Everyone kept quiet about it"

Primoz Roglic's crash at the Tour de France and subsequent abandon, and the influence he had on the race as a whole was a critical part of this year's Grand Boucle. More details emerge as the Slovenia...

cyclinguptodate.com

So much for the little details!

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

No statement from the rider (Michel Hessmann) yet?…

 

[Sciatic]

Yes and now; it depends.... They ring at your door a few time; if you don't show up at the door they might call you on your phone. The tester has to do a reasonable attempt to find you. This during the 1 hour you indicated you would be at home -or another place- as per your whereabouts. 20 minutes is on the limit I think before the tester could conclude you where not there... But as a rider you don't want to be limited in your movement too much; so you mostly indicate a time early in the day or late in the evening where your are sure to be at home (in your morning routine or still in bed or in your late evening routine). It would be hard just to keep de door closed for 20 minutes at that time...
I also know of a rider during his training ride being phoned by a tester; the tester asks where you are, he joins the rider and escorts during his training with his car to the riders home. Of course then the 20 minutes would be difficult to get.... -although they might give you time to shower before the test...
If the rider wouldn't pick up his phone, the tester would just wait at his home until the training is done... Somebody can warn you the tester is waiting for you. Then you can have your 20 minutes...

Interesting, thanks.

 

[NFTtiddies]

Yes and now; it depends.... They ring at your door a few time; if you don't show up at the door they might call you on your phone. The tester has to do a reasonable attempt to find you. This during the 1 hour you indicated you would be at home -or another place- as per your whereabouts. 20 minutes is on the limit I think before the tester could conclude you where not there... But as a rider you don't want to be limited in your movement too much; so you mostly indicate a time early in the day or late in the evening where your are sure to be at home (in your morning routine or still in bed or in your late evening routine). It would be hard just to keep de door closed for 20 minutes at that time...
I also know of a rider during his training ride being phoned by a tester; the tester asks where you are, he joins the rider and escorts during his training with his car to the riders home. Of course then the 20 minutes would be difficult to get.... -although they might give you time to shower before the test...
If the rider wouldn't pick up his phone, the tester would just wait at his home until the training is done... Somebody can warn you the tester is waiting for you. Then you can have your 20 minutes...

You are not allowed to shower, or do anything other than drink the water provided by the tester and pee. If you really do require a shower or anything else that cannot wait, you must get a permission from the tester and he must be able to see your every action.

 

[magliaroz]

The PR message will be a "bad apple", but what about Jumbo missing Roglic's back injury -
Roglic's physio said, "It wasn't until Primož took a magnetic scan in Monte Carlo on his own initiative and sent me a picture that we realized that the injury was not so innocent," he revealed, connecting the dots between Roglic's diagnosis." see -

Roglic's physiotherapist talks about Jumbo-Visma secrecy regarding injuries and misdiagnosis: "Everyone kept quiet about it"

Primoz Roglic's crash at the Tour de France and subsequent abandon, and the influence he had on the race as a whole was a critical part of this year's Grand Boucle. More details emerge as the Slovenia...

cyclinguptodate.com

So much for the little details!

So they prepare perfectly and pay attention to everything only when there is an alien performance to justify? What a strange coincidence! 😂

 

[Wvtienen]

You are not allowed to shower, or do anything other than drink the water provided by the tester and pee. If you really do require a shower or anything else that cannot wait, you must get a permission from the tester and he must be able to see your every action.

indeed a good remark: I am now wondering if the shower happened before the control - actually sure it did. But I am not sure here how the rule that the chaperone has to stay with the sporter as there is no chaperone in out of competition testing, just the doctor -at least in Belgium. I wonder if a doctor sees it as his task to stay with the athlete. And it is a blood test not urine -so this first urine thing doesn't apply.

 

[samhocking]

I would

indeed a good remark: I am now wondering if the shower happened before the control - actually sure it did. But I am not sure here how the rule that the chaperone has to stay with the sporter as there is no chaperone in out of competition testing, just the doctor -at least in Belgium. I wonder if a doctor sees it as his task to stay with the athlete. And it is a blood test not urine -so this first urine thing doesn't apply.

The athlete gives his whereabouts every day, so it isn't that complicated to use masking agents. If you are still glowing and need to mask what you took in the hour your might get visited by anti-doping, you will be scheduling your masking agent to coincide with your whereabouts file time slot. You definitely can't go off and do things out of sight of the testing DCOs or Chaperones.

 

[Walter1234]

I would

The athlete gives his whereabouts every day, so it isn't that complicated to use masking agents. If you are still glowing and need to mask what you took in the hour your might get visited by anti-doping, you will be scheduling your masking agent to coincide with your whereabouts file time slot....

A correction: you can be tested any time; just in the one hour you need to be available in a fixed spot and can for sure result in a no-show Infraction if they dont find you. There is no restriction on when you can be tested.

 

[samhocking]

A correction: you can be tested any time; just in the one hour you need to be available in a fixed spot and can for sure result in a no-show Infraction if they dont find you. There is no restriction on when you can be tested.

No, I am describing random testing. The randomness isn't any time any day ( that is in-competition only), it's random in that you give your whereabouts each day but there is no predetermined date arranged for your out of competition test on the day you give and where you are, because you know know you might be tested and so can mask accordingly as it's not random, you know what details you gave. That would be called an advanced notice out of competition test under WADA code.

 

[Aimar16]

It's kind of weird that the guy didn't make any statement, just casually changed bikes and is now riding an MTB

 

[SHAD0W93]

Three?!

Unless they are employing an early 90s Rick James on the team then the clause is meaningless

That’s not just three, that’s three in one year. So they can have two positives this year and two next year in October and be fine.

 

[noob]

Unless he's taken some tainted supplement, this is definitely not good for him.

As has been pointed out, it was an out of competition test which was seemingly done at an unusual time . Also it was pointed out that a diuretic can also be a substance that increases the plasma volume of blood. We await further information to pass judgement, but if Jumbo are going to throw him to the wolves, then I suppose we'll get the old "bad apple" excuse.

I watched TdF 2007 and then didn't watch cycling until 2020. Because I didn't like the way MR was hung out to dry back then.

If he's hung out I hope he writes a book like Dekker 🤨😁 (Or I don't, because I like many of his teamates.)

 

[Nick2413]

So is the assumption that he was regularly taking the diuretic while on whatever PEDs he was on, or specifically took it once he knew he’d be tested?

 

[Netserk]

I watched TdF 2007 and then didn't watch cycling until 2020. Because I didn't like the way MR was hung out to dry back then.

If he's hung out I hope he writes a book like Dekker 🤨😁 (Or I don't, because I like many of his teamates.)

What is it that you want the team to do that is not hanging him out to dry?

 

[Walter1234]

No, I am describing random testing. The randomness isn't any time any day ( that is in-competition only), it's random in that you give your whereabouts each day but there is no predetermined date arranged for your out of competition test on the day you give and where you are, because you know know you might be tested and so can mask accordingly as it's not random, you know what details you gave. That would be called an advanced notice out of competition test under WADA code.

Just to be clear; There is no "in the hour your might get visited by anti-doping", as you named it, in out-competition testing. Out-competition you can get a test at any moment during the day; also outside the hour you mention you can be found on a fixed place in the whereabouts. Your whereabouts also mention where you train, where you sleep. They can find you in these places and do tests at any moment.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Just to be clear; There is no "in the hour your might get visited by anti-doping", as you named it, in out-competition testing. Out-competition you can get a test at any moment during the day; also outside the hour you mention you can be found on a fixed place in the whereabouts. Your whereabouts also mention where you train, where you sleep. They can find you in these places and do tests at any moment.

Everyone expects the the Spanish inquisition:
Our chief weapon is surprise! ...
fear! and
ruthless efficiency!

 

[Rackham]

The PR message will be a "bad apple", but what about Jumbo missing Roglic's back injury -
Roglic's physio said, "It wasn't until Primož took a magnetic scan in Monte Carlo on his own initiative and sent me a picture that we realized that the injury was not so innocent," he revealed, connecting the dots between Roglic's diagnosis." see -

Roglic's physiotherapist talks about Jumbo-Visma secrecy regarding injuries and misdiagnosis: "Everyone kept quiet about it"

Primoz Roglic's crash at the Tour de France and subsequent abandon, and the influence he had on the race as a whole was a critical part of this year's Grand Boucle. More details emerge as the Slovenia...

cyclinguptodate.com

So much for the little details!

The potential PR messaging re he's a "bad apple" is more difficult in this case because Hessmann came through the junior ranks at Jumbo before signing his first pro contract with the team (for this season). So it's not like he's an unknown quantity. They can't easily claim "omg this guy wtf we had no idea he was into that sort of stuff etc." when technically speaking they've been monitoring his progress for years.

I do feel bad for the rider, for what it's worth, i.e. when it's a guy who did well in the Giro, had a promising career & was on good money (probably) with lots of potential for growth there, then yeah, these few days will be pretty tough for him.

But it always falls on someone. I will say I was a bit surprised by his recent poor performance in the Czech Tour though (i.e. he was outshone by Johannes Staune-Mittet, which was notable because Hessmann had such a great climbing level in the Giro, aka which was way harder than the Czech race). Ergo he'd lost some form since the end of May for sure.

 

[ManicJack]

Sure are a lot of people with supposed knowledge of how the whereabouts system works. You all know you're correct but all disagree. Riddle me that one.