Team Visma LAB

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the SKY thread was 55 pages at the beginning of July 2012
RaboJumbo won 2 Tours, Giro, 3 Vuelta, every stage race they raced this year. 55 pages

yes, that was 10 years ago when this forum and all forums in general had a lot more users and activity. there's not much more to say than "wow, these guys are f*cking doped!!!" anyway. nobody is in here disagreeing. the Sky threads grew so exponentially because they had a bunch of homers arguing that they were clean.
 
the SKY thread was 55 pages at the beginning of July 2012
RaboJumbo won 2 Tours, Giro, 3 Vuelta, every stage race they raced this year. 55 pages
Easy to grow pages when there’s three groups arguing over the team; supporters, detractors, and neutral. Now it’s pretty much all detractors with a few neutral and the homers were just in Vinge’s thread after the TT then disappeared.
 
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This is way worse than Sky. Sky just focused in the Tour and they struggled a lot to win the Vuelta. They only won because Froome took extra pumps and was caught but for some reason he wasn't banned.
Jumbo is killing all season in classics and GT's with alien performances by Vingegaard in the Tour. Now, Kuss with 2 GT's in the legs is winning and wearing red.
Kuss not in red, but please continue with your other ***.
 
if one of Jumbo's doctors was caught ordering a pallet of testosterone patches the team would fold the next day.
Well obviously that would, but would Jumbo have a 7 year ongoing enquiry, for a one month box of 30 gels not even known who took it? The point is, Hessman's case will not affect Zeeman or the team. They're not even really being questioned about it, cycling accepts doping so long as the rider just exits the sport quietly.
 
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This is way worse than Sky. Sky just focused in the Tour and they struggled a lot to win the Vuelta. They only won because Froome took extra pumps and was caught but for some reason he wasn't banned.
Jumbo is killing all season in classics and GT's with alien performances by Vingegaard in the Tour. Now, Kuss with 2 GT's in the legs is winning and wearing red.
What's with the blatant revisionism? Sky won tons of stuff other than the Tour throughout every season, they were beasts in all kinds of stage races. You don't need to whitewash past absurdities to call out Jumbo now.
 
What's with the blatant revisionism? Sky won tons of stuff other than the Tour throughout every season, they were beasts in all kinds of stage races. You don't need to whitewash past absurdities to call out Jumbo now.
Tell me how many vueltas and Giros, sky won in their prime? Just one Vuelta and one Giro between 2012-2019. How many important classics did they win? How many times did they contest the win in monuments during 2012-2019? They were focusing all their strenght in stage races. They won 2016 Liège with Poels in a very awkward Liége (heavy rain) and some classics with Kwia and Thomas but mainly due to tactical reasons not pure power like Jumbo with Laporte or WVA.
 
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Well obviously that would, but would Jumbo have a 7 year ongoing enquiry, for a one month box of 30 gels not even known who took it? The point is, Hessman's case will not affect Zeeman or the team. They're not even really being questioned about it, cycling accepts doping so long as the rider just exits the sport quietly.

hold up a second, let's compare doping scandals:

here's Jumbo:


and here's Team Sky. I have to zoom out twice to fit them all in one screenshot:
 
hold up a second, let's compare doping scandals:

here's Jumbo:


and here's Team Sky. I have to zoom out twice to fit them all in one screenshot:
Not a Sky fan, but looking at how the staff didn't change that much one could go back until the Rabo days when it comes to Jumbo...
 
hold up a second, let's compare doping scandals:

here's Jumbo:


and here's Team Sky. I have to zoom out twice to fit them all in one screenshot:

The issue you have with Team Sky is you have a decade's worth there compared to four for Jumbo unless you count the previous. And also a lot of those riders there, their indiscretions were not while they were with Team Sky. Appollonio and Siutsou were caught after leaving; Barry, Cioni, Possoni and Tiernan-Locke were busted for stuff they did before Sky.

And if you count the previous for Jumbo, obviously Rabo have one of the longest lists of anybody there.
 
sure, if you want to count the nearly 30 years of history the team had before they started this current string of domination then they'd have far more doping scandals than Sky, no argument there. i think both of those lists acutely encompass the direct period of time both teams were dominant for. Sky 2012-2018 had far more doping scandals than Jumbo has had since 2019.
 
sure, if you want to count the nearly 30 years of history the team had before they started this current string of domination then they'd have far more doping scandals than Sky, no argument there. i think both of those lists acutely encompass the direct period of time both teams were dominant for. Sky 2012-2018 had far more doping scandals than Jumbo has had since 2019.
Why do people keep bringing up deflections to Sky or Froome when doping at Jumbo Visma is brought up? No objective person denies Sky's problems. The problem now is Jumbo-Visma. By bringing up Sky we turn attention away from where it needs to be. It seems to me that Jumbo-Visma have taken everything learned from the Skyneos era and upped the ante. That includes marginal gains which we read as an explanation for Vingo's Miguel Indurain beating stage 16 TT (not me, this is what Dutch or Danish media reported, quoting hand picked "experts").
 
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Why do people keep bringing up deflections to Sky or Froome when doping at Jumbo Visma is brought up? No objective person denies Sky's problems. The problem now is Jumbo-Visma. By bringing up Sky we turn attention away from where it needs to be. It seems to me that Jumbo-Visma have taken everything learned from the Skyneos era and upped the ante. That includes marginal gains which we read as an explanation for Vingo's Miguel Indurain beating stage 16 TT (not me, this is what Dutch or Danish media reported, quoting hand picked "experts").

go read the last few pages. I wasn't the person who brought up Sky. there were two different posters in here moaning (as usual) about how there's not enough posts in here compared to the Sky threads from 10 years ago. it's always the same two people doing the same thing every time Jumbo win a race.
 
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I am really curious if Vigo and Kuss get stronger or get weaker. If they both get stronger after doing the Tour, and for Cuss this being his third GT this year, then it just brings about multiple levels of taking the p*ss. I can't wait to hear the new explanations (that is a lie, I really can wait).

Of course, Jisma (or perhaps Dopo-Visma) never really offer up any explanations
 
hold up a second, let's compare doping scandals:

here's Jumbo:


and here's Team Sky. I have to zoom out twice to fit them all in one screenshot:
Dopeology is not evidence of riders or teams doping their riders lol. For a start there hasn't yet been a single rider with a doping violation when racing at Sky or Ineos in 13 years so far, Jumbo look like they will have their first within half that time, but similar level of success.
All I'm saying is, even simply alleged doping without any proven evidence is/was discussed and judged on a completely different basis for Sky than it is for Jumbo or would be for any other team, then or now. Nobody is bothered Roglics own winning team included Hessmen who now looks like will be banned with an ADRV. Nobody is bothered to be booing them on the start line, nobody is bothered to theorise for 2000 pages about how it happened, create endless twitter profiles about JumboPostal, nobody will demand anything of Jumbo or any team unless it's Ineos, then they will and they will be held to a different level of accountability. Why would that be? Simply because they said they raced clean? Well if clean means not having doping violations, Ineos are the last team in World Tour to not have a doping violation(s) since forming. If it means not saying anything much like Jumbo and most teams but having doping violations in the team, maybe they should lower their own message similarly to Jumbo perhaps, it seems you get a much easier time of it to me?
 
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With all the "sportswashing" money coming in, does anyone want the circus to stop? Slap the wrists of some domestiques maybe but throw the clowns out of the big top? When some of the guys get so fed up with the two-speed peloton (as apparently happened back in February) and spill the beans then the stink might well cause the ring-masters to clean up after the elephants.
 
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With all the "sportswashing" money coming in, does anyone want the circus to stop? Slap the wrists of some domestiques maybe but throw the clowns out of the big top? When some of the guys get so fed up with the two-speed peloton (as apparently happened back in February) and spill the beans then the stink might well cause the ring-masters to clean up after the elephants.
This, the 2000s showed that actually effective anti-doping/catching top guys only hurts your sport and gives it a rep of being dirty.
There's no incentive for it at the highest level.
 
This, the 2000s showed that actually effective anti-doping/catching top guys only hurts your sport and gives it a rep of being dirty.
There's no incentive for it at the highest level.
From an economics perspective this would seem to be true. Anecdotally, I wonder how many of your average sports fans think cycling is the dirtiest sport because there were positive doping tests? I mean compared to the big team sports (football/soccer, NFL, NHL, MLB, etc), or tennis, or track and athletics
 
From an economics perspective this would seem to be true. Anecdotally, I wonder how many of your average sports fans think cycling is the dirtiest sport because there were positive doping tests? I mean compared to the big team sports (football/soccer, NFL, NHL, MLB, etc), or tennis, or track and athletics
The problem is that they can't go so far that it starts to create problems that people are going to look into, like the early 90s deaths in cycling that, whether or not they were due to EPO or not, started to set people's noses twitching, especially when the level got ridiculous in the mid-90s. If the performances are so ludicrous that the fans are baulking, then you have to do a clean-up job.

Fans are always more likely to baulk at what they see in a 'pure' athletic endeavour than a skill game, because it's easier to kid yourself. No amount of drugs will turn your average Ligue-2 player into Kylian Mbappé... but the drugs might help those players be able to still perform those skills 95 minutes into the game.

Even strength type things like field events, even though there are plenty of drugs in those, somebody could just get the perfect rhythm, the perfect weather conditions, the perfect moment for a one-off throw or leap, such that a crazy outlier like, say, Bob Beamon's long jump record does not attract the same suspicion as Flo-Jo's 100m, or the records of Marita Koch and Jarmila Kratochvílová. There is literally a book about the 1988 Olympic men's 100m final called (in English), The Dirtiest Race in History. Everyone in the race save for Robson da Silva and Calvin Smith has been busted for doping. But Johnson... you could tell just by looking at him. He was one of those who got too blatant and had to be taken down as a result, because it's important that the audience be able to suspend their disbelief.

And that's the key, really. In sports like soccer, fans will always be able to suspend their disbelief because they'll look at the skills rather than the physical feats that the players are pulling off. When physical feats are the totality of the sport (tactics willing of course), like athletics, cycling, cross-country skiing, swimming and other sports that depend primarily on your physiological engine and efficiency, there is always the risk of being too much of an outlier for that suspension of disbelief. It's why even in my more naïve days I found Cândido Barbosa's August exploits unpalatable, why the likes of Mirsamad Pourseyedi and Rahim Emami on the Asia Tour are figures of fun. As long as the show is fun, people will suspend their disbelief a little longer, which is probably the main factor in their favour for the time being - but should they win all 3 GTs in this dominant a fashion, should Kuss domestique all 3 GTs and stay this strong throughout, Wout van Aert doing Wout van Aert things, Christophe Laporte winning multiple classics and so on all the way, then more and more people will be unable to suspend disbelief any further.

But let's let them actually do that first. Even Alejandro Valverde, whose high base level meant his ability to get results from February to October was legendary, ran out of gas when he tried to do all three GTs back to back with a significant role. There's been many a case of a team or rider looking imperious in a GT only to capitulate. Think of Purito and his Katyusha troop in the 2012 Vuelta, Simon Yates in the 2018 Giro or Tom Dumoulin in the 2015 Vuelta. Or, hell, Primož Roglič in the 2020 Tour. One of Jumbo's main problems then was an abject failure to capitalise on strong form, due to the insanely negative racing that sparked the whole Sepp-Kuss-never-works thing. They've gone the opposite way now, and are going full cannibal.
 
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