TeamWork...

[mr. tibbs]

Can anyone imagine Heras, Landis, or Hamilton leading the chase group after Armstrong attacked in 99-05? No. They would have stopped pedalling, got on a few wheels, or just fallen off altogether.

I don't see any tactical justification for Kloden and Armstrong riding at the front of the group rather than letting Wiggins, Evans, et al do the work.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Watch the way Contador looked several times at Lance before he attacked. He saw that Lance was at his limit and took advantage.

I have absolutely no doubt that Lance and Kloden were riding to limit Lance's losses. Strange though that Klodi was allowed (or dared) to ride 10 secs ahead of Lance over the line. I wonder what was said between them in the last km. Did Lance accept that he doesn't have "it" anymore and allow Kloden to gain some time with the view to the German being Astana's second man? Are we finally seeing some humility / realism? I would actually gain a little respect for Lance if he had said something like "off you go Andreas, I'm fu&*ed"...

Still amazes me that so many posters delight in the fact that Astana is the strongest team and that JB is a tactical genius.

Two Points:

1 - Having the strongest riders all on the same team means you have the best team. It isn't so much training and tactics as economics and politics.

2 - A chimpanzee could be the Astana DS and still win the tour.

If JB moved to Lotto and won the tour with Evans and that current squad - then I'd hail him as a tactical genius ;-)

 

[Publicus]

Watch the way Contador looked several times at Lance before he attacked. He saw that Lance was at his limit and took advantage.

I have absolutely no doubt that Lance and Kloden were riding to limit Lance's losses. Strange though that Klodi was allowed (or dared) to ride 10 secs ahead of Lance over the line. I wonder what was said between them in the last km. Did Lance accept that he doesn't have "it" anymore and allow Kloden to gain some time with the view to the German being Astana's second man? Are we finally seeing some humility / realism? I would actually gain a little respect for Lance if he had said something like "off you go Andreas, I'm fu&*ed"...

Still amazes me that so many posters delight in the fact that Astana is the strongest team and that JB is a tactical genius.

Two Points:

1 - Having the strongest riders all on the same team means you have the best team. It isn't so much training and tactics as economics and politics.

2 - A chimpanzee could be the Astana DS and still win the tour.

If JB moved to Lotto and won the tour with Evans and that current squad - then I'd hail him as a tactical genius ;-)

He wasn't looking at Lance. He was looking at Andy Schleck and Bradley Wiggins. Lance was parallel to him, he was looking back at those two trying to gauge their feeling--which I would say he got just right.

 

[Publicus]

Can anyone imagine Heras, Landis, or Hamilton leading the chase group after Armstrong attacked in 99-05? No. They would have stopped pedalling, got on a few wheels, or just fallen off altogether.

I don't see any tactical justification for Kloden and Armstrong riding at the front of the group rather than letting Wiggins, Evans, et al do the work.

Truer words have never been written. I watched the last 30 minutes a couple of times last night and it never made any sense why Kloden and Armstrong were in the front of that group. Why not conserve energy (relatively speaking) and sit on Cadel's wheel?

Only thing that makes sense is that Kloden was trying to pace Armstrong's pride up the mountain. He (Armstrong) looked like he had been crying during his post-race interviews (really red eyes).

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Lance was sat glued to AC's wheel from about 10km before the start of the climb. This is significant. Contador dropped around alongside him, had a look at him, and exited stage front.

I think he knows he can take the Schlecks et al. LA was the unknown factor.

 

[Publicus]

Lance was sat glued to AC's wheel from about 10km before the start of the climb. This is significant. Contador dropped around alongside him, had a look at him, and exited stage front.

I think he knows he can take the Schlecks et al. LA was the unknown factor.

I don't think he was thinking about Lance one bit. He knew Lance wouldn't chase if he attacked, so why worry about him? The only ones to worry about were Wiggins and the Schlecks (in particular Andy). If they could follow his attack, then Lance would just sit on one of their respective wheels.

One thing we do agree on, he knows he can take the Schlecks.

 

[phillop]

good god there are some ****ing know it alls in hear.
time for me to put MY know it all hat on too.
Astana is the strongest team
Yes they are riding their own races.
So what if they arent riding like US Postal did for lance, US Postal never went into a tour with 3 or 4 GC men.
They have the top 3 GC men at the moment, can only be a good thing.
Lance is not out to sabotage AC.
What needs to be argued about in this situation
Both riders want to win, niether will cause the other not to.

 

[Jayarbie]

He wasn't looking at Lance. He was looking at Andy Schleck and Bradley Wiggins. Lance was parallel to him, he was looking back at those two trying to gauge their feeling--which I would say he got just right.

It looked like he looked at Lance after Lance bridged to Contador after the first acceleration (which wasn't Contador's original attack). It looked like he gave him the look of "wtf is that, I'm on your team, you douchebag". I think Lance got the message because a second later, Contador took off and Lance didn't react. After that, it looked like everyone else except A Schleck looked at each other like "we've been following Astana all Tour long, now what do we do?" and then just hopped on Lance and Klodi's wheel even though they were kind of soft pedaling the tempo to let Contador get up the hill. Schleck was the only one who looked like he realized that following the wheels of the teammates of the guy who just took off up the mountain was probably a bad idea.

When everyone just instinctively hops on your wheel and refuses to leave it, what do you want them to do? Stop and get off their bikes altogether? It was definitely a weird situation, but I wouldn't call what I saw from Lance and Klodi "chasing".

 

[VeloFidelis]

Its nice to see some sanity returning to the more recent posts here. Any one who says they saw Lance and Kloden chasing Contador, may have been watching, but not seeing very well what was happening. There was no reaction except from Andy Schleck, and if Armstrong had the strength and the legs it would have been a perfectly legitimate tactic to chase and sit on Andy Schleck. He didn't, and he couldn't, and he played the loyal teammate as did Kloden.

The fact that no one else could go either, and that they sat on Lance and Kloden just tells you that they were all on the rivet at that moment. Even though they weren't chasing they did still have their own GC concerns to look after, and that is what we all watched until the final K when the guys they were pulling pushed on by. That's basic survival racing 101. Anyone who thinks those guys were grinding out an agenda or team strategy at that point has never been on their lips on a summit finish.

What I find most interesting is how badly the fans have been played on this Lance / Contador soap opera. Even Sastre says that the press has been fueling something that probably wasn't there, or not remotely close to the levels of animosity that so many are lead to believe. This team has 4 GC contenders who dine together, have team meetings and discuss strategy all together, not to mention all the communication they have with each other on the road. I am very sure that they sorted out their pecking order long ago.

Did Lance come to win? Absolutely! So did Kloden and Leipheimer. This is a 21 stage race, and anything can happen. It's there job to come prepared to win, but they also come with a game plan, and I believe that one of the tools in their tool box was media hype. If they know what's really going on, the rest of it all only plays to their advantage. Don't you think those other GC guys expected Lance to chase Contador? Do you think that may be why they hesitated? Do you think a smart DS and experienced team might play it that way?

Do any of you feel like you have been the **** of a pretty good tactical ruse? Hinault still swears to this day that all he wanted to do in 86 was push Lemond to be a worthy champion. Armstrong has always had far more to gain by finishing with a very respectable, and respectful lower podium placing. I guess we'll all have to wait for everybody's next book deal to find out the real truth, or at least their individual versions of it.

 

[Amsterhammer]

What an excellent post, thanks. I've always been convinced that the media hype was blowing things out of proportion, but I hadn't considered that the media hype might have been deliberately conceived by the diabolically clever JB.

 

[Oldman]

Amsterhammer & Co

I mentioned the benefits to Astana playing the media a week ago. After the first Itt everyone on the team knew what to do until they got to these mountains. Any intelligent director would want to keep as many riders ahead of the next contender as possible. This is a bike race and you're only one crash away from being out of contention. They'll continue to pad AC's lead at other's expense.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I mentioned the benefits to Astana playing the media a week ago. After the first Itt everyone on the team knew what to do until they got to these mountains. Any intelligent director would want to keep as many riders ahead of the next contender as possible. This is a bike race and you're only one crash away from being out of contention. They'll continue to pad AC's lead at other's expense.

I must have missed the OP, but your Astana tactics scenario sounds spot on to this old man, Oldman.

Keep as many irons in the fire for as long as possible.

 

[benpounder]

It is too bad Kloden was not given permission to ride for himself. Armstrong should be helping Kloden, not the other way around.

I dont know how Levi would have done, but I'm deeply disappointed he wasn't there. Given the media storm LA and JB have created, both Levi and Andreas should have been given free reigns...

Pity that out of the top ten cyclists in the world, Kloden and Leipheimer were relegated to support a guy that cant keep up. Were I Bruynel, I would have tasked Popo and Zubeldia to protect Contador, and let Kloden and Leipheimer , and Armstrong, chose their own race.

 

[Anonymous]

Lance and Kloden draged a group of the top contenders after there own man, everyone was critical when Tmobile chased down vino back a few years ago,
when one of your team is off the front you let the other contenders drag you up after them, you dont help them catch up like lance and kloden did

Finaly the yellow jersey race has started

hang on.. what tour are we talking about.. have i missed something?

im very confused as to what you are talking about

 

[Titaniumtim]

In this article on Wiggins he says "At that point, Contador and Schleck had already flown the coop, leaving Astana's duo of Armstrong and Klöden setting tempo. "I felt that Klöden kept coming to the front to slow it down, and I didn't want guys coming up from behind, like Sastre."
It looks like the Astana guys were trying slow the chase. This come from Wiggins and he was there.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-ready-to-seize-the-day

 

[pmcg76]

Simple really, if Lance wins there will of course have been friction.

If Contador wins, then the LA/Hog line will be they deliberately created this false friction and Lance was behind Alberto all the way, kinda like Hinault in 86

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=2232


I posted the above 4 days ago, must be getting pretty good at this game.

 

[benpounder]

If Contador wins, then the LA/Hog line will be they deliberately created this false friction and Lance was behind Alberto all the way, kinda like Hinault in 86

I posted the above 4 days ago, must be getting pretty good at this game.

And I posted the bolded 4 months ago
. Having read all the Lance hating and Lance loving posts, and all the stories posted by a media swallowed by the PR circus, all I can say is JB played so many like the tools they are.

 

[mherm79]

Having read all the Lance hating and Lance loving posts, and all the stories posted by a media swallowed by the PR circus, all I can say is JB played so many like the tools they are.

+1 well played Lance/JB. Contador was virtually garaunteed this years wins and Lance a podium finish (not bad after 4yrs) after fooling everyon else into thinking they would attack each other and Astana would be in-fighting.

 

[benpounder]

+1 well played Lance/JB.

I'm not giving Lance credit. I think he really thought he could be maillot jaune competitive. Bruynelll knew who his ace in the hole was all the time, but fed the media just enough for them to end up running around in frantic circles chasing a rumour of a suggestion of a second-hand sourced story.

Bruynell's only problem was that his ace in the hole - Contador - was, and still is, too immature to recognize what was being set up for his benefit.

 

[indurain666]

+1 well played Lance/JB. Contador was virtually garaunteed this years wins and Lance a podium finish (not bad after 4yrs) after fooling everyon else into thinking they would attack each other and Astana would be in-fighting.

Oh dear...and you guys really believe this?? It was so well planned that they even fooled LA, JB and Ac.

Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? CNN?

 

[Jayarbie]

I'm not giving Lance credit. I think he really thought he could be maillot jaune competitive. Bruynelll knew who his ace in the hole was all the time, but fed the media just enough for them to end up running around in frantic circles chasing a rumour of a suggestion of a second-hand sourced story.

Bruynell's only problem was that his ace in the hole - Contador - was, and still is, too immature to recognize what was being set up for his benefit.

Lance clearly prepared himself to be able to win, and Bruyneel clearly considered Contador Plan A and Lance Plan B (and Kloden Plan C, I guess). I don't think that Lance planned on attacking Contador unless he showed weakness somewhere. He took the 40 seconds on the early stage (with help from teammates on orders from Bruyneel) only because there were no other contenders in the front group. If either Schleck or Evans or Sastre or even Menchov had made the split with Armstrong, Bruyneel would have called off the dogs and probably sent Popo and Zubeldia back to chase instead of ahead to drive the break. The Columbia guys (Kirchen, Rogers, Hincapie) were never really considered contenders. The whole team rift was much more of a media fabrication than anything else. Contador was the #1 (and deservedly so) from the start. Neither Bruyneel nor Lance ever did anything that jeopardized Contador's place with the contenders outside the team. It's just in their embarassment of riches, Astana had other guys who could step up and possibly even win if the top guy wasn't up to the task.

 

[runninboy]

In this article on Wiggins he says "At that point, Contador and Schleck had already flown the coop, leaving Astana's duo of Armstrong and Klöden setting tempo. "I felt that Klöden kept coming to the front to slow it down, and I didn't want guys coming up from behind, like Sastre."
It looks like the Astana guys were trying slow the chase. This come from Wiggins and he was there.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-ready-to-seize-the-day

exactly right, first AC took off, LA did nothing, then Schleck attacked .
From the helicopter shot you can see Lance keeping the same pace, shortly after Kloden got back to Lance, they both swing wide to opposite sides of the road and slow, but nobody else would pull through. So they resumed their tempo.
Periodically they would slow and swing off but no one came through.
Sastre was able to bridge up because they were not exactly hammering.

 

[Oldman]

runningboy's response

You know what you're looking at. We all need to keep in mind that these guys are organic, not robots. Anyone withing 3 minutes can still win if bad diet, bad night's sleep or a bad decending style will cause a problem. It has been boring considering we're talking about how people "look" while they ride. The ****e is still in the air and can hit the fan; derailing the best laid plans. I wouldn't count Sastre, Kloden or Armstrong out. Anyone that can't lay down a serious Itt is in trouble, though.

 

[dolophonic]

Pedro Delgado
PD: That’s the virtue that Armstrong has, his inner strength. Not only is he physically strong, but his mental strength was always above all the others. And that’s why I think he made a little mistake (Sunday), because if he was a little bit on the ropes, then he should have faked it a little more. It wasn’t up to him to make the race from behind, but let the others take over. He’s a winner, so he just couldn’t permit that Contador went away off the front and Andy Schleck without an answer. First one went, then the other, he tried to follow, but he couldn’t and then the others started to attack him.

He might know a bit about bike racing...