Tennis

[SundayRider]

Shock horror! A guy grows bigger and stronger from age 18 to age 25!

Yes but your not talking about an 18yr old who has never done exercise/sport in their life who suddenly gets a lot bigger/stronger. Your talking about an 18yr old who has basically lived the life of a pro athlete for a long time already.

 

[sniper]

Shock horror! A guy grows bigger and stronger from age 18 to age 25!

you're apologizing Sky, so be it, but now you're also apologizing the top of men's pro-tennis where anti-doping testing is close to negligible?

Imo the comparison of Murray 2005 and 2012/13 is quite compelling and not very advantageous for Murray.

 

[Hawkwood]

Yes but your not talking about an 18yr old who has never done exercise/sport in their life who suddenly gets a lot bigger/stronger. Your talking about an 18yr old who has basically lived the life of a pro athlete for a long time already.

Exactly. I remember Murray being interviewed when he was 18 or 19 and saying that he was too fragile and needed to bulk up a bit. The moment I heard that I thought I wonder how he's going to do that....

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Imo the comparison of Murray 2005 and 2012/13 is quite compelling and not very advantageous for Murray.

I base my judgement on several years exposure to rowers ageing from late teens to mid 20s. You really can change your body shape dramatically with weight training and no PEDs, because I've done it, as did numerous of my friends/crewmates. If we'd had spare cash, then being young guys, we'd have blown it on beer and women rather than PEDs.

I'm not saying Murray isn't doping, but basing an assessment on a comparison of his appearance aged 18 to that aged 25 is pretty feeble. He's gone from a tall skinny youth, to a slightly taller mature adult, who's added muscle, but is still essentially a thin, lightly built man.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yes but your not talking about an 18yr old who has never done exercise/sport in their life who suddenly gets a lot bigger/stronger. Your talking about an 18yr old who has basically lived the life of a pro athlete for a long time already.

Hmmm...

So what you're saying is that any professional athlete can't add lean mass after the age of 18 other than by doping. Not sure I buy this as an argument, tbh!

 

[SundayRider]

I base my judgement on several years exposure to rowers ageing from late teens to mid 20s. You really can change your body shape dramatically with weight training and no PEDs, because I've done it, as did numerous of my friends/crewmates. If we'd had spare cash, then being young guys, we'd have blown it on beer and women rather than PEDs.

I'm not saying Murray isn't doping, but basing an assessment on a comparison of his appearance aged 18 to that aged 25 is pretty feeble. He's gone from a tall skinny youth, to a slightly taller mature adult, who's added muscle, but is still essentially a thin, lightly built man.

Yes but tennis players have essentially a year round season with loads of traveling between events and always staying in different places, plus on court practice, skills drills, conditioning training etc - hardly an ideal scenario for a bodybuilding style routine is it.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yes but tennis players have essentially a year round season with loads of traveling between events and always staying in different places, plus on court practice, skills drills, conditioning training etc - hardly an ideal scenario for a bodybuilding style routine is it.

Indeed, but Murray's build is nothing like that of a body builder.

 

[robow7]

Shock horror! A guy grows bigger and stronger from age 18 to age 25!

+1, and three pounds of muscle is not that much considering his height or size
Now Nadal or Agassi might have been a different story but not definitive with Murray imo.

 

[del1962]

Yes but your not talking about an 18yr old who has never done exercise/sport in their life who suddenly gets a lot bigger/stronger. Your talking about an 18yr old who has basically lived the life of a pro athlete for a long time already.

Yeah because aspiring 18 year old Tennis player are always doing weights in the gym rather than just playing Tennis.

 

[SundayRider]

Indeed, but Murray's build is nothing like that of a body builder.

Adding muscle is a form 'bodybuilding' regardless of whether you look like a bodybuilder or not. The original link was regarding putting on muscle and increasing VO2 max and aerobic endurance which is very difficult to do- two conflicting ways of training.

 

[SundayRider]

Yeah because aspiring 18 year old Tennis player are always doing weights in the gym rather than just playing Tennis.

How do you know what his routine was at age 18? Tennis players put in a lot of hours at a young age, I'd be surprised if pros at that age were not lifting weights.

 

[del1962]

How do you know what his routine was at age 18? Tennis players put in a lot of hours at a young age, I'd be surprised if pros at that age were not lifting weights.

You don't know his routine at 18 nor do I, but it would not suprise me if he wasn't lifting weights.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Adding muscle is a form 'bodybuilding' regardless of whether you look like a bodybuilder or not. The original link was regarding putting on muscle and increasing VO2 max and aerobic endurance which is very difficult to do- two conflicting ways of training.

My initial comment was simply to do with the reliability of just a 2005 to 2013 comparison of Murray's physique to deduce or otherwise doping.

I would agree that adding muscle and increasing endurance simultaneously is difficult, without an increase in time spent training, which is unlikely at this stage of Murray's career. It is, however, just before the first "Slam" of the year and much of what is said at the moment is part of the mind games. One can't take anything in an article that claims Murray is faster than Usain Bolt seriously, so we don't even know if he actually has added muscle and endurance to the extent claimed.

 

[del1962]

My initial comment was simply to do with the reliability of just a 2005 to 2013 comparison of Murray's physique to deduce or otherwise doping.

I would agree that adding muscle and increasing endurance simultaneously is difficult, without an increase in time spent training, which is unlikely at this stage of Murray's career. It is, however, just before the first "Slam" of the year and much of what is said at the moment is part of the mind games. One can't take anything in an article that claims Murray is faster than Usain Bolt seriously, so we don't even know if he actually has added muscle and endurance to the extent claimed.

Love the Usain Bolt comment when he also say this "He could also probably run a 53 seconds 400 metres if he trained for it. "

 

[blackcat]

Love the Usain Bolt comment when he also say this "He could also probably run a 53 seconds 400 metres if he trained for it. "

you mean a 43. or the subbie, or Andy M. whoever made the comment.

It is stupid to make it about Andy. Like cycling, I would posit, 90% of the top 100 are on something. Top 10, all of em. So it aint a j'accuse about Andy M

The biggest indictment on tennis, like cycling, is you cant now be top 10, without the gear.

About 2009 offseason, Nadal was coming off a "surgery". think it was either knee tendons, or shoulder. He came into the Aus Open in JAnuary, hafl the player, and 8kgs or pure muscle lighter. he was

HAlF

teh

PlaYA.


half the player I tell ya. 50% the player. Came in as a shadow of the muscular superhuman.

Goes from Lee Austin The 6 Million Dollar Man, to a begger in NYC.


Other thing is, Gil Reyes, Aggasi's former "fitness" trainer. The "power"lifter Gil.

And blackcat cant put as many inverted commas around """"" fitness """"""" and """""" powerlifter """""" without getting RSI.

Does anyone follow tennis here. I dont, only very sporadically. Just fyi, I think Tomik, apart from being the son of Damir Dokic, is the reincarnation of
David Foster Wallace rip the forehand.

anyway, back to tennis.

and inverted commas.

Fernando Verdasco, had the breakout 2010 Aus Open after doing the Vegas training ground with Gil Reyes and Darren Cahill. quotation marks quotation marks quotation marks.

http://www.google.com.au/webhp?sour...GI&fp=2ee5cfff559bfaca&ion=1&biw=1920&bih=989

and this one is of the BigBoat hehehehe variety. from the official ATP site http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/DEUCE-Tennis/DEUCE-Australian-Open-2011/Fernando-Verdasco.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/sports/tennis/17adidas.html?_r=0

so fifteen love and Ana Avanovic, the former squeeze of Verdasco. He comes in to Melbourne post Las Vegas with something that did not stay in Vegas. He forgot the rules that what goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Something about cocktail waitresses and paternity suits.

so Verdasco comes in and by memory he makes the semis or the final. Thankyou for your inverted commas more quotation marks fitness training Gil. Thanks.

this aint about Verdasco, or Nadal. It just is a salient offer, that these training camps in the Canaries, or Vegas, go on in tennis. If you asked me 5 years ago, if any tennis athlete was helped by the gear, I would not have put any credence in denying it up front. But these examples are telling. And I think this goes back beyong Kordr and Greg Rusedski and all the Argentinians who go for amphetamines. It is easy for the ATP to ban the argies, it is like Thatcher and the Maldives, whoops, the Malvinas. Easy too easy to beat up on the argies. They are the equivalent of the Russians and the Spanish in cycling.

I'm done.

Oh, but not with a barrel chest jay peg of Gil the fitness trainer.

NB, and google what Marcelo Rios had to say on Aggasi. And what Andrew Illie said about tennis. now hes coaching to doctors wives and milfs in FILTH Hongkers.

 

[sniper]

splendid post blackcat.

Anybody know a certain Ronnie Leitgeb?
Indeed, used to train Thomas Muster in the 90s including 1995 when Muster, sort of out of the blue at the age of 28, was beating records on clay (longest unbeaten series, and most tournaments won in a season) and raising eyebrowes because of his incredible stamina.

Leitgeb doesn't just train tennisplayers, he also trains swimmers, such as the most succesful austrian swimmer of today, Markus Rogan.

Here's Thomas Muster's comments on Agassi's amphetamin confession:

Muster selbst kenne sich "mit dem Zeug" prinzipiell nicht aus. Und er wisse nicht, welche Art von Doping man mit dieser Substanz erreiche. Einen Imageschaden für den "weißen Sport" sieht Muster aber nicht. "Tennis ist nicht wirklich ein Dopingsport, es kommt selten vor. Anscheinend hat es Fälle gegeben, und es sind auch Leute gesperrt worden, aber es ist nicht gang und gäbe, im Tennis zu dopen."

http://www.kleinezeitung.at/sport/tennis/2186854/thomas-muster-bin-ueberrascht-enttaeuscht.story

 

[blackcat]

re: Muster

yeahyeahyeahsniper

oh yeah. Thomas Muster. He used to get down to his jock strap during games, or after games. In Australia, we dont have jock straps. So most really have no understanding of their structure. Til Muster. And I know he has a place in Noosa, an Austrian model at my uni in Aus, stayed with him when these euro student friends of mine ran into him up in noosa packbacking and went to parties at Rafters place. Three years later he married an Australian Jo Beth who had the same blonde look.

Muster had the record for the Euro claycourt season til Nadal. If any surface (desides hardcourt) was susceptible to the doped athlete, it is clay. they are marathons from the back of the court, and usually come down to he who blinks first loses. This actually made me re-evaluate the career of Michael Chang.

pls mods, do allow this, if only for the funnies

 

[blackcat]

oh yeah. The other tennis athlete you forgot Sniper, was a Nike athlete who does commentary at the AusOpen.

Nike did a commercial of him doing the cross training (ie. sans tennis court).

There was no snow in Texas, but they had him dragging a tire from a waist harness doing wind-sprints.

Name of player. Former world #1, in a similar manner to Muster, James Courier. Hello Jo Girggs. need to be australian watching chennel 7 commentary for this reference.

 

[Andynonomous]

By the way, I would be unfair to the Spanish fans (since I regularly point out Spanish doping), by not pointing out the denial about Andy Murray.

1) Andy Murray uses the "addidas training program". This program uses "Gil Reyes", and "Darren Cahill". Both of these coaches are highly suspect.

2) Andy Murray's body shape changed dramatically late in his teens (especially his calves). Most males who are naturally muscular, show hints of this by their mid-teens. Murray was REALLY skinny in his mid teens.

3) Andy Murray kept repeating the mantra early in his career that dopers repeat. "I have to get fitter".

4) Andy Murray has complained on numerous occasions about the "overly stringent" controls in tennis.

5) Andy Murray trained in Spain earlier in his career.

6) Andy Murray has been very friendly, and has defended some of the more obvious dopers in tennis (ie. Rafael Nadal).

7) Andy Murray's stamina has improved dramatically over the years.

8) Most "Grand Slam" winners get their first victory at the slams by the age of 22. Murray was 25 or 26 when he won his first. Pre-steroids era tennis usually saw male players peak at 22 to 25).



It is OVERWHELMINGLY likely that Murray dopes (I put it at about 95%).

Sorry, but their is a LOT of denial here by the British fans.

Britain had such a successful Olympics in 2012 for one primary reason, Doping.

All home countries do this (Spain in 92, China in 2008, Canada in 2010, Britain in 2012). Watch for Russia to have an "athletic renaisance" in 2014.

 

[blackcat]

it is not about Murray.

indict the sport writ large, not the individual.

 

[blackcat]

All home countries do this (Spain in 92, China in 2008, Canada in 2010, Britain in 2012). Watch for Russia to have an "athletic renaisance" in 2014.

plus Australia 2000. The performance from Jumping Jai Turema was one

out

of

teh






box

 

[SundayRider]

By the way, I would be unfair to the Spanish fans (since I regularly point out Spanish doping), by not pointing out the denial about Andy Murray.

1) Andy Murray uses the "addidas training program". This program uses "Gil Reyes", and "Darren Cahill". Both of these coaches are highly suspect.

2) Andy Murray's body shape changed dramatically late in his teens (especially his calves). Most males who are naturally muscular, show hints of this by their mid-teens. Murray was REALLY skinny in his mid teens.

3) Andy Murray kept repeating the mantra early in his career that dopers repeat. "I have to get fitter".

4) Andy Murray has complained on numerous occasions about the "overly stringent" controls in tennis.

5) Andy Murray trained in Spain earlier in his career.

6) Andy Murray has been very friendly, and has defended some of the more obvious dopers in tennis (ie. Rafael Nadal).

7) Andy Murray's stamina has improved dramatically over the years.

8) Most "Grand Slam" winners get their first victory at the slams by the age of 22. Murray was 25 or 26 when he won his first. Pre-steroids era tennis usually saw male players peak at 22 to 25).



It is OVERWHELMINGLY likely that Murray dopes (I put it at about 95%).

Sorry, but their is a LOT of denial here by the British fans.

Britain had such a successful Olympics in 2012 for one primary reason, Doping.

All home countries do this (Spain in 92, China in 2008, Canada in 2010, Britain in 2012). Watch for Russia to have an "athletic renaisance" in 2014.

You make some good points not just about tennis but athletes in general. Re. Murray your right he changed from an almost long distance runner type physique to a sort of sprinters physique. People who have that 'sprinters type of physique' usually so markers of it from quite an early age, even if they do little to no training/exercise.

 

[blackcat]

I will give you folx a hint on how to spot androgen usage by sight.

you check the muscles that are very difficult to build even with a weights program that focuses on them.

sumbmission into evidence i. The upper trapezius. The Hulk muscle. Very difficult to grow. And how they can be grown with isomorphic exercises like sprint repeats, defies credulity.

ii) hamstring. but hamstring with a bicep type bulge. Think a popeye the sailor man eat my spinach hulka hogan vitamins type bow to the hamstring.

iii) the outer sweep of the quadricep. the bodybuilders call this the sweep. the outer quad. Very difficult to grow a "bowed" or exaggerrated sweep on this muscle.

blackcats theory, the 2010 era androgens, igf-1, and other stuff, really supercharge isometric movements, or non-gym, non-free-weight or non-weighted movements. Like sprints and the like. When coupled with a few core gym weights exercises, like a shoulder press, manage to grow the traps, beyond what steroids of the previous era could. That said, the last 4 decades, all olympic sprinters have had large upper traps, not only ben johnson and linford.

a couple examples. I dont know how murrary would build his traps, looking at his genetics, but build he did. And this IS NOT a jaccuse on murrary, it is all sport, and all the top 100 in tennis.

in defense of murray, they used to call Ken Rosewall MUSCLES, he was 5'6" 100lbs dripping wet, but his left forearm was huge. he was a leftie right?

but murray needs his androgens... like the rest

and Tiger needs his Canadian "youth and vitality" doctor to get his physique

Tiger was the same build as Murray as a 17yo

 

[blackcat]

splendid post blackcat.

great post Hog

 

[robow7]

5) Andy Murray trained in Spain earlier in his career.

6) Andy Murray has been very friendly, and has defended some of the more obvious dopers in tennis (ie. Rafael Nadal).

7) Andy Murray's stamina has improved dramatically over the years.

8) Most "Grand Slam" winners get their first victory at the slams by the age of 22. Murray was 25 or 26 when he won his first. Pre-steroids era tennis usually saw male players peak at 22 to 25).
.

In reference to point 5, he trained in Spain since his youth because the weather in Scotland is crap for a tennis player and there is (was) a lot better competition there to work against day in and day out. Same in the states, any young player that shows promise from the north or even midwest almost always heads to Florida or California to develop.

I haven't seen Andy defend Nadal on accusations related to doping, might be there but I would like to see them.

Andy is now in his prime, as a male and as a tennis player, not surprised that he has better indurance and to some degree, greater muscle mass although I have to ask is that photo above untouched? Yow!

Don't be surprised that Andy at 25 just won his first Grand Slam, because he has had the misfortune to come along at the same time as two of the very greatest to ever play the game, in Fed and Nadal, and 2011 was one of the greatest achievements by a single player in tennis history and that came from not even one of those two, but the Djoker.

In other words, some of your points are easily explained away, but not all.