Tennis

[sniper]

I agree with your post in general, but in respect of the quoted section, the key point is that a guy in the US Open final only has to recover relative to the person they're playing. (Much that same as if two people are running away from a lion, you only need to out-run the other guy rather than the lion to survive.)

Thus, you can still have a 10% recovery advantage if you've recovered 50% compared to the other guy's 40%. Alternatively, if your still kn*ckered and can run at 8mps instead of your normal 10mps, you'll still do well against someone who's down to 7mps from their usual 10mps.

This accords with intuition and personal experience. You can do a hard effort one day and still do a very decent effort the next day, even though it wouldn't be your best. Obviously, doping would aid recovery, but the point is that it's perfectly possible to perform to a decent level the day after a hard effort without assistance. It's not like doping is required to enable a player to make it out of bed on the day of the final!

I read some analysis once about the relative success rate in the final given the timing of the semi final (ie before or after the ladies' final.) Can't remember the results, unfortunately. There was a theory that the guy from the earliest semi won more often than not due to different recovery periods.

last years we've seen 7 or 8 guys dominating in grandslam semis and finals.
none of those 7 or 8 guys was any less fit than the other, so your argument of relativity doesn't apply to the semis and finals of the slams.
it looks more as if you're (again) apologizing for what are rather clearly inhumane performances (dojokovic-nadal-murray-ferrer) from a fitness/stamina point of view. The assumption of heavy PED abuse in mens tennis (the top 100 in general and the top 10 in particular) "accords with intuition and personal experience" of what is humanly possible.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

It looks more as if you're (again) apologizing for what are rather clearly inhumane performances (dojokovic-nadal-murray-ferrer) from a fitness/stamina point of view.

That's why I agreed with the rest of the post from Zebedee, I suppose. <<FFS read what I write icon>>.

One cannot objectively measure the extent of recovery that a tennis player exhibits. Even without artificial aids, a Murray/Djokovic/Nadal would still look like an inhumanely good tennis player the day after a 5 hour semi final. The difference between this standard and the standard benefitting from artificial aids is not discernable to the naked eye, in much the same way as without a stopwatch, someone running 10.0s for the 100m would look the same as one running 9.7s ie f*cking fast. One is plausible, the other isn't, though.

So, simply by observing relative performances on the court, one can't judge the extent of doping in tennis. One can maybe deduce something from the history of the size of Rafa's biceps, but ultimately, one deduces that doping is endemic in tennis because:

i) Doping aids all sports

ii) Top tennis players have a strong will to win...

iii) ...a lot of money...

iv) ...and a conveniently timed off-season

v) The governing body seems not to care

And because you're either wilfully misinterpreting my posts, in too much of a hurry to read them properly or plain stupid (I suspect the first option) then I shall reiterate that nothing in what I have posted up to here passes any judgement on whether the top tennis players are doping.

I happen to think they are, just as I think Sky are up to no good, but that doesn't mean to say I have to agree with every comment made about doping Sky or doping tennis players! (Or even be bothered about it.)

 

[sniper]

ok, i get your point. not sure if i agree, but ok.

<<FFS read what I write icon>>

 

[coinneach]

I've just been catching up on Nadal's knee injections of 2010, as posted in the Cooke thread.
Sounds highly dubious, like a lot of these treatments.

Does anyone here remember Roche? Note: Roche, Tony Roche.
IIRC, he was a Aussie leftie in the 60's who had major problems with an elbow injury. He went to a faith healer (in the Phillipines?) who cut open his arm and pulled some stuff out. Tony was cured!

Turned out later, the guy was a complete fraud / magician who pulled stuff from hens bodies and pretended it came from his patients.

I may have got some of the details wrong, but the bottom line was Tony believed him, and it worked!

I do wonder how much of this type of bull**** passes for injury treatment / doping assistance these days?

 

[SundayRider]

Nadal's serve improved quite a bit in 2010 the year he completed the career slam, then all of sudden it returned to normal levels.

 

[the asian]

Nice one.

"In tennis the testing process is incredibly stringent" said Djokovic, before admitting he had not been blood tested in the last year..

 

[zebedee]

I think the most significant aspect of Djokovic's comments on the Armstrong interview was his negative view regarding the blood passport. He didn't see the need for it in tennis. As he is known to be a user of the epo-masking, hyperbaric Egg, I can quite understand his reluctance.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WpuFEpbE0d0

I don't want to turn this into a "let's analyse everyone's physique" thread because that would be weird.

I found this advert of Agassi, not sure when it was but he looks soft as it gets for a tennis player:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WpuFEpbE0d0

Not sure if this was before he started working with Gil Reyes or not.

 

[zebedee]

Square that with the PR claims put out by Agassi and Reyes regarding his 350lbs bench press capability.

Outright muscularity - weight lifting style - offers no advantage to tennis players.

 

[robow7]

Nadal's serve improved quite a bit in 2010 the year he completed the career slam, then all of sudden it returned to normal levels.

Yea, everyone was more than a little surprised when Nadal added 10+ mph to his serve almost over night at the US Open that year. At his age, increased service speed doesn't come easily with the same racquet and strings and without losing other aspects to one's game. He claimed to be hitting flatter and it was effective, but then his service speed backed down after that.
He must not have enjoyed all those added free points he was winning on his serve.

 

[peterh]

Yea, everyone was more than a little surprised when Nadal added 10+ mph to his serve almost over night at the US Open that year. At his age, increased service speed doesn't come easily with the same racquet and strings and without losing other aspects to one's game. He claimed to be hitting flatter and it was effective, but then his service speed backed down after that.
He must not have enjoyed all those added free points he was winning on his serve.

He backed down from that after the USO because it had a negative impact on his shoulder. One should not forget that Nadal is a natural right- hander who is playing as a leftie. He found a way to speed up his serve (not as much as some claim) by changing his grip a bit and applying a slightly different technique, and it helped him winning the USO, but he couldn't keep it that way.
I'm all for conspiracy theories but they should have some substance at least

 

[Briant_Gumble]

He backed down from that after the USO because it had a negative impact on his shoulder. One should not forget that Nadal is a natural right- hander who is playing as a leftie. He found a way to speed up his serve (not as much as some claim) by changing his grip a bit and applying a slightly different technique, and it helped him winning the USO, but he couldn't keep it that way.
I'm all for conspiracy theories but they should have some substance at least

Are you saying its a conspiracy that Nadal doped?

Personally I think Nadal doped both before and afte the US Open so there were technical reasons for the change in speed but his cycle for the summer, IMO, definitely had something to do with it.

 

[PCutter]

He found a way to speed up his serve (not as much as some claim) by changing his grip a bit and applying a slightly different technique, and it helped him winning the USO

So you're saying its cadence?

 

[zebedee]

Too tenuous a connection in my view, to offer much by way of inference.

Dr Eufemiano Fuentes might have more to say on the matter. Regrettably, the Spanish authorities have closed the lid on any possibility of the Operacion Puerto case spreading to tennis, despite the good doctor's repeated claims to the press that professional tennis players made up 20% of his clients.

It would seem that Spanish sporting nationalism extends to the protection of its national icons.

 

[robow7]

Changing one's grip slightly or simply flattening out the stroke doesn't easily add 10+ Mph to one's serve when you consider that he's not a novice or someone that hasn't been coached his whole life. Believe me, by 2010, I'm sure Nadal had experimented with every grip and motion known to man by that point in order to add spin and power to his serve, he's lived on the court since childhood. If it had not been effective, I can see him dropping it, but it was effective and watch video from the US Open and after and he didn't change his stroke that much to seemingly inflict injury to his shoulder.
Also, we've all seen his biceps when flexes after a winning shot and yet he claims to never spend any time in a gym with weights, you don't own those type of biceps from playing tennis alone and they weren't natural for sure.

Also on Agassi, if you read his book, he talks about the Gil's shakes that Gil would prepare for him and you got to believe these were more than just a protein shake in order to create that musculature when he returned.

I'm not saying all ATP pros dope by any means but these two stand out to me as highly suspect since their physique changed so much. Just my take.

 

[blackcat]

Square that with the PR claims put out by Agassi and Reyes regarding his 350lbs bench press capability.

Outright muscularity - weight lifting style - offers no advantage to tennis players.

that British triple jumper, who was about 135lbs dripping wet, 5'10"ish, could bench about 350 lbs by memory.

yeah, Agassi looked soft. He did not look like what the current players, or Nadal look like.

But Mo Greene was not ripped. And Charles Barkley did not look athletic.

You got what you got with genetics. Most Olympic athletes are dialled into an inch of their life, but there is the odd one who does not fit with the shape.

Tends to almost be zero in sports like swimming and t&f tho.

if anyone was gonna teach Agassi how to bench big numbers, it was Gil. And Agassi never grew the barrel chest, and ripped physique. like a NAdal or Guillermothe bull Vilas

 

[Briant_Gumble]

that British triple jumper, who was about 135lbs dripping wet, 5'10"ish, could bench about 350 lbs by memory.

yeah, Agassi looked soft. He did not look like what the current players, or Nadal look like.

But Mo Greene was not ripped. And Charles Barkley did not look athletic.

You got what you got with genetics. Most Olympic athletes are dialled into an inch of their life, but there is the odd one who does not fit with the shape.

Tends to almost be zero in sports like swimming and t&f tho.

if anyone was gonna teach Agassi how to bench big numbers, it was Gil. And Agassi never grew the barrel chest, and ripped physique. like a NAdal or Guillermothe bull Vilas

The point I was getting at was that Agassi did tone up quite a bit from this point in his career. Whether this was due to weight training or PED's is a matter of opinion.

Also it has been mentioned in this thread and also in the football thread that looking at these guys, the ones who are the most physical specimens are usually the ones who are either popped for PED's or highly suspicious.

 

[blackcat]

that British triple jumper, who was about 135lbs dripping wet, 5'10"ish, could bench about 350 lbs by memory.

jonathan edwards doing a flatley levity riverdance

 

[blackcat]

The point I was getting at was that Agassi did tone up quite a bit from this point in his career. Whether this was due to weight training or PED's is a matter of opinion.

Also it has been mentioned in this thread and also in the football thread that looking at these guys, the ones who are the most physical specimens are usually the ones who are either popped for PED's or highly suspicious.

briant gumble, i prefer katie couric or matt lauer, but...

my default is, all dope, starting late teens, in their elite talent development programs.

that is the defacto setting, and they need to prove the negative for me.

 

[zebedee]

The circumstantial evidence against Agassi, in my view, lies more in the fact that he started picking up grand slam titles big time from the age of 29 on, a time most pros are starting to think of a life outside the lines of a tennis court.

Agassi attributes this success to a damascene conversion after being dumped out of the 1999 Australian Open, and which triggered a renewed commitment to hard training under the tutelage of physical trainer Gil Reyes and his coach Brad Gilbert, author of Winning Ugly, the celebrated handbook for tennis cheats. Agassi's accomplishment is probably unprecedented in tennis as peak maturity runs from age 23/24 to 26/27. Couple this with the fact that his grand slam winning period started nine or ten years into to his famous link up with Gil Reyes and that he habitually spent weeks and weeks off tour toning up in Las Vegas before returning with a vengeance, and the alarm bells ring more loudly still. Just what were these guys up to? Because something certainly did happen in 1999 as Agassi then travelled to Europe, won the French Open and continued on from there with another four grand slam titles. At times on court, he was simply indestructable.

His publicists later put out releases to build the myth, claiming this resurgence in fitness was largely down to gym work followed by lung-bursting runs up some hill outside Las Vegas they called Magic Mountain. I am suspicious that it was just that, particularly when it became known that, for a tennis player at least, Agassi could push relatively big numbers on a bench press when much bigger, equally well-conditioned, committed players like Jonas Bjorkman had nowhere near Agassi's upper body strength.

That of course proves nothing in itself. But then it later emerges that he tested positive for a recreational drug, lied to the ATP about it who then covered the whole affair up. That to me, makes it as near a cast iron certainty that Agassi was up to no good, at least for the latter part of his career when he won five of his eight grand slam titles, a period when drug testing in tennis was carried out by a players' union which we now know to have been willing to cover up doping scandals affecting its top players.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

The circumstantial evidence against Agassi, in my view, lies more in the fact that he started picking up grand slam titles big time from the age of 29 on, a time most pros are starting to think of a life outside the lines of a tennis court.

Agassi attributes this success to a damascene conversion after being dumped out of the 1999 Australian Open, and which triggered a renewed commitment to hard training under the tutelage of physical trainer Gil Reyes and his coach Brad Gilbert, author of Winning Ugly, the celebrated handbook for tennis cheats. Agassi's accomplishment is probably unprecedented in tennis as peak maturity runs from age 23/24 to 26/27. Couple this with the fact that his grand slam winning period started nine or ten years into to his famous link up with Gil Reyes and that he habitually spent weeks and weeks off tour toning up in Las Vegas before returning with a vengeance, and the alarm bells ring more loudly still. Just what were these guys up to? Because something certainly did happen in 1999 as Agassi then travelled to Europe, won the French Open and continued on from there with another four grand slam titles. At times on court, he was simply indestructable.

His publicists later put out releases to build the myth, claiming this resurgence in fitness was largely down to gym work followed by lung-bursting runs up some hill outside Las Vegas they called Magic Mountain. I am suspicious that it was just that, particularly when it became known that, for a tennis player at least, Agassi could push relatively big numbers on a bench press when much bigger, equally well-conditioned, committed players like Jonas Bjorkman had nowhere near Agassi's upper body strength.

That of course proves nothing in itself. But then it later emerges that he tested positive for a recreational drug, lied to the ATP about it who then covered the whole affair up. That to me, makes it as near a cast iron certainty that Agassi was up to no good, at least for the latter part of his career when he won five of his eight grand slam titles, a period when drug testing in tennis was carried out by a players' union which we now know to have been willing to cover up doping scandals affecting its top players.

Is it certain that Agassi tested positive for a recreational drug?

Amphetamines have been used since the 1900's as a stimulant, was there something in Agassi's urine sample to discern between the recreational form and the performance enhancing kind?

 

[blackcat]

agassi's was meth, or ice, he "said". Ofcourse, it could have, as you say, been a stimulant amphetamine.

Athletes dont believe its cheating. Agassi is another type A.

I dont think he just started with Gil in his mid to late 20's on his return to the Tour after his Brooke Shields divorce. he woulda always done something, just when he returned, he got serious.

but not at the start, when he had to do the satellites (challengers) to get his ranking up.

A 17yo Lleyton Hewitt beat him in Adelaide . Hewitt's old man is like the worst of tennis parents, up there with Capriati's and Mary Pierce's. Worse than Damir Dokic imo, just he has his head strapped on unlike DD, and does not complain about fish prices in the players cafe at Wimbledon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETSl8gWsFZ0

 

[Don Quixote]

jonathan edwards doing a flatley levity riverdance

I have a frog in my pond that sometimes pulls a face like that.

 

[Don Quixote]

Sheeeeesh, this could be worth investigating. Genetic engineering? Frogs are pretty damn adept at jumping. Anyone seen 'The Fly' with Jeff Goldbum?

 

[blackcat]

I have a frog in my pond that sometimes pulls a face like that.

thats his constipation face