The 2014 CQ Ranking Manager Thread

[skidmark]

CQranking as a whole is pretty skewed.

Really? How so, 'as a whole'? I agree that there are egregious exceptions (eg. there is no way that Moreno Hofland was as 'good' in 2013 as Visconti or Stannard), and I'm sure we can all pick out some races where the overall has either a strong 'luck' element or has a parcours that involves an unexciting lack of 'luck' or race tactics, such as races where there are a bunch of flat stages and a TT. But generally to me it seems to do quite a good job at staggering the points totals for a whole whack of races.

What do you think would need to be changed to have it less skewed, as you say, 'as a whole'?

 

[Panda Claws]

Really? How so, 'as a whole'? I agree that there are egregious exceptions (eg. there is no way that Moreno Hofland was as 'good' in 2013 as Visconti or Stannard), and I'm sure we can all pick out some races where the overall has either a strong 'luck' element or has a parcours that involves an unexciting lack of 'luck' or race tactics, such as races where there are a bunch of flat stages and a TT. But generally to me it seems to do quite a good job at staggering the points totals for a whole whack of races.

What do you think would need to be changed to have it less skewed, as you say, 'as a whole'?

In my opinion there are too many points to be had in smaller races (e.g. Davide Rebellin still scoring well). Stage races also offer too many points in comparison to classics.

An example is Fabian Cancellara who never does all that great on the CQranking and is almost tied with Sylvain Chavanel in 2013.

Skewed might be a bit of a strong word though, as the ranking as a whole is decent.

 

[skidmark]

Update #2: Bongo Drums up Early Season Enthusiasm as Popular Riders Score Big

The early-season staple on the African Calendar, the Tropicale Amissa Bongo, is usually an opportunity for some top-level French teams to stretch their legs as they start their seasons, and the chance for emerging domestic African talents to get a chance to shine in one of the continent's biggest races. Despite being relatively isolated on the early-season calendar, it hasn't had much attention or impact on the CQ game in the last few years.

Not so this edition. Right from the start, the hardest stage, the best riders broke away and settled the hierarchy, with the rest of the week being a race of tactics and bonus seconds. Two strong riders who spent 2013 being mostly unwanted, Luis Leon Sanchez and Linus Gerdemann, clearly had something to prove. Gerdemann, in his first race since 2012 with his new team MTN-Qhubeka, got 4th on the first stage and ended 5th on the overall, good for 53 points. Sanchez was more notably aggressive, winning first on the first stage, second on the second stage, and getting the leader's jersey for most of the race before being beaten by an astute Natnael Berhane by bonus seconds on the final stage. Sanchez scored an impressive 143 points this week, making him temporarily the CQ leader for 2014.

At any rate, Gerdemann is among the game's most popular picks (89 teams have him) and Sanchez is up there too (48 teams). At this early stage, that's sufficient to turn the rankings upside down.

This Week's Top Scorers:

1: Ludwigzgz and Zuremelk - 263 (Berhane and Sanchez)
3. mc_mountain and EvansIsTheBest - 231 (Sanchez, Gerdemann, Seneschal)
5. 28 teams with Gerdemann and Sanchez - 196

The rare combo of Berhane and Sanchez (top 2 riders so far in 2014) nets Ludwigzgz and Zuremelk joint top spot, but as they scored no points in the previous week it's not quite enough to get them in the top 10, as they are both tied for 12th overall. The highest ranked team (the only one in the top 10 last week) with both Sanchez and Gerdemann was riaroadtrip, who is among the pile tied for 5th highest scorer of the week.

This Week's Top Movers:

1. Ludwigzgz and Zuremelk - +78
3. mc_mountain - +68
4. ten teams (Afrank, ansimi, Cyivel, karlboss, Maaaaaaaarten, Oliveira, Pentacycle, rywann, Team Roubaix, the Hitch) at +59

Not surprisingly, all the high movers are teams that scored no points in the Aussie and NZ nationals last week, so they're going from being tied for 90th to being near the top of the heap. Speaking of said heap:

Top 10:

Rank Team Points
1 wizard_of_oz 482
2 riaroadtrip 346
3 Ferminal 316
4 Geraint Too Fast 301
5 WonderLance 298
6 18-Valve. (pithy) 296
6 Kazistuta 296
6 Ruudz0r 296
6 Ruvu75 296
10 EvansIsTheBest 281
10 the_sceptic 281

Despite scoring zero points, Wizard of Oz maintains top spot on the strength of a whole whack of points from the Aussie nationals. With the Tour Down Under this week often being targeted by Aussies, but with a World Tour field, as well as the 2.1 Tour de San Luis going on with alot of WT teams and big picks, it should be a very interesting week to watch.

Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lrm9kokz14rp218/CQ 2014 update 2.xls

 

[Afrank]

I got a mention in the update! Okay, sharing that mention with 10 other teams, but I'm counting it anyways. Goal 1: get a mention in an update, accomplished.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I am 16th

 

[Netserk]

WonderLance 5th!!!

_O_

BTW good update!

 

[Netserk]

In my opinion there are too many points to be had in smaller races (e.g. Davide Rebellin still scoring well). Stage races also offer too many points in comparison to classics.

An example is Fabian Cancellara who never does all that great on the CQranking and is almost tied with Sylvain Chavanel in 2013.

Then why can Boonen and Sagan score enough to be up there?

Maybe Canc just focuses on too few races...

 

[EvansIsTheBest]

Regarding the CQRanking, I don't think it is flawed in itself. I mean sure it's not perfect, but no ranking ever is. If some races dish out absurd level of points, it's because the UCI has given them ridiculously high classification (Hainan and all the other chinese races for instance) and any attempt to correct that case by case is going to look arbitrary at best. And to be fair, they did recently (last year I think) lower the points available in newer WT stage races such as the TDU in favour of more historic ones like PN and TA which is a good thing. My main criticism would be with the Mallorca challenge who really ought to be considered as a stage race, rather than separate classics.

Anyway, it's a shame Berhane beat LLS. The other way around and I would have been the week's highest scorer with mc_mountain. I'll settle for top10 instead, hopefully I'll stay until the end like in 2012.

By the way, congrats to Jancouver and simple for picking Gaimon, who might be into profit tomorrow.

 

[karlboss]

Regarding the CQRanking, I don't think it is flawed in itself. I mean sure it's not perfect, but no ranking ever is. If some races dish out absurd level of points, it's because the UCI has given them ridiculously high classification (Hainan and all the other chinese races for instance) and any attempt to correct that case by case is going to look arbitrary at best. And to be fair, they did recently (last year I think) lower the points available in newer WT stage races such as the TDU in favour of more historic ones like PN and TA which is a good thing. My main criticism would be with the Mallorca challenge who really ought to be considered as a stage race, rather than separate classics.

Anyway, it's a shame Berhane beat LLS. The other way around and I would have been the week's highest scorer with mc_mountain. I'll settle for top10 instead, hopefully I'll stay until the end like in 2012.

By the way, congrats to Jancouver and simple for picking Gaimon, who might be into profit tomorrow.

I think the biggest flaw in any cycling rankings system I've seen so far is they underestimate domestiques. You see it in CQ all the time when a rider gets better/stronger/faster, but steps to a bigger team and becomes a domestique or super domestique and their personal results dry up. Though somewhat ridiculous imagine what Moreno could achieve if Rodriguez worked for him. I think he'd push 2000 points CQ.

 

[Jancouver]

Guess who got Phil Gaimon?
Just two teams, some guy Jancouver and one other genius

Phil for the overall?

 

[Nicosix]

Excuse me but I don't appear in rankings though I have Gerdemann and LLS

My points are at 0 on the spreadsheet

 

[LaFlorecita]

Guess who got Phil Gaimon?
Just two teams, some guy Jancouver and one other genius

Phil for the overall?

For some reason I don't think he can fend off the likes of Nibali and Quintana on 3 MTFs.

 

[WonderLance]

WonderLance 5th!!!

Yes, this is disappointingly low.

 

[ItalianGigolo]

So happy I picked Gerro now! I expect something special in Milano San Remo from him too...

 

[ingsve]

Regarding the CQRanking, I don't think it is flawed in itself. I mean sure it's not perfect, but no ranking ever is. If some races dish out absurd level of points, it's because the UCI has given them ridiculously high classification (Hainan and all the other chinese races for instance) and any attempt to correct that case by case is going to look arbitrary at best. And to be fair, they did recently (last year I think) lower the points available in newer WT stage races such as the TDU in favour of more historic ones like PN and TA which is a good thing. My main criticism would be with the Mallorca challenge who really ought to be considered as a stage race, rather than separate classics.

Anyway, it's a shame Berhane beat LLS. The other way around and I would have been the week's highest scorer with mc_mountain. I'll settle for top10 instead, hopefully I'll stay until the end like in 2012.

By the way, congrats to Jancouver and simple for picking Gaimon, who might be into profit tomorrow.

One thing to remember is that the CQ ranking was originally simply a continuation of the old world ranking that existed before the ProTour was introduced. Since races have gone through changes since then there has had to be adjustments made and there has also been some further points adjustments made in recent years but overall the ranking reflects fairly well the points allocation from the old world ranking back when we had Trade Teams.

 

[mc_mountain]

Excuse me but I don't appear in rankings though I have Gerdemann and LLS

My points are at 0 on the spreadsheet

yeah you should be on 196 equal 31st. (not sure why but the results column is looking in the last week tab rather than 2014 Results tab, easily corrected)

 

[greenedge]

So happy I picked Gerro now! I expect something special in Milano San Remo from him too...

Last year was a great year for him too, he just didn't cash in at the TDU/ crashed at the Vuelta. This year he can hopefully have an Australian summer and go well in MSR/ AGR then go well at the end of the year.


I'm hoping he can now beat Kittel and Cav throughout the year too

 

[ItalianGigolo]

I'm hoping he can now beat Kittel and Cav throughout the year too

Well, that escalated quickly...

 

[the sceptic]

top 10. my season is saved

 

[skidmark]

Excuse me but I don't appear in rankings though I have Gerdemann and LLS

My points are at 0 on the spreadsheet

I dunno what's up Nicosix. I entered your team like any other and the formulas were off in the first place. I thought we fixed them but it looks like they need fixing again. It should be together for next week; thanks for pointing it out, sometimes spreadsheets just do weird inexplicable things (or maybe i hit something and didn't notice).

 

[Tigerion]

I think the biggest flaw in any cycling rankings system I've seen so far is they underestimate domestiques. You see it in CQ all the time when a rider gets better/stronger/faster, but steps to a bigger team and becomes a domestique or super domestique and their personal results dry up. Though somewhat ridiculous imagine what Moreno could achieve if Rodriguez worked for him. I think he'd push 2000 points CQ.

Is there any ranking that can actually overcome this. Unless you are sharing a percentage of the highest placed riders with the rest of the team. But how do you differentiate between somebody who rides a few km at the front on a flat stage and somebody who leaves everything on a climb to bring their leader back to a group

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Atapuma looking good so far. I definitely think he's good enough to be a good pick, but I hope he gets enough chances throughout the year to score some points. Finishing s.t. as Quintana on the first MTF of the year is a good sign though imo.

 

[NairoQ]

So Zubeldia will have a great year while Betancur is over his top already?
Atapuma looks good indeed, but just for now. It's to early for any conclusions, De Clercq didn't have a wonderful season last year, did he?

 

[NairoQ]

Is there any ranking that can actually overcome this. Unless you are sharing a percentage of the highest placed riders with the rest of the team. But how do you differentiate between somebody who rides a few km at the front on a flat stage and somebody who leaves everything on a climb to bring their leader back to a group

You could just award more points for participating in a GT, for example. Another thing which should be different in a 'fair' ranking is looking at the riders he defeated in a particular stage. Let's say, if Cavendish wins a sprint against Kittel and Greipel in Tropicale Amissa Bongo, that should be worth more points than Jans beating Garcia and Géné.

 

[ingsve]

You could just award more points for participating in a GT, for example. Another thing which should be different in a 'fair' ranking is looking at the riders he defeated in a particular stage. Let's say, if Cavendish wins a sprint against Kittel and Greipel in Tropicale Amissa Bongo, that should be worth more points than Jans beating Garcia and Géné.

That sounds like a very hard thing to regulate and could potentially be abused. At any rate that is sort of what the race cassifications is about in a way. Lesser categorized races implies that the field is weaker and hence gives fewer points. The problem rather is that some higher categorized races don't attract enough good riders which leads to the situation where two races of the same category can have vastly different starting fields. The solution to this is having more mandatory participations or fixed schedules but that has it's own problems and would probably not be popular for other reasons.