Well all my riders scored points, so there's that. Plus only 5 scored less than last year, unfortunately 3 of the 5 had really bad returns.
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Doubtful, I've been waiting all year for skidmark to adjust the name of QUINN Sean to DE LIE Arnaud
More seriously, skidmark does make the changes when they get flagged or it's a high profile rider say Ben/Benjamin Turner that gets caught immediately because a bunch of team loose hundreds of points all of a sudden (Valgren and Latour a few years back are other examples of the top of my head). Ideally the burden wouldn't fall on players to check that their riders manes don't change midway through the season but it's just a lot to ask of skidmark to check on every rider. Maybe we could come up with a better system. Either find out if CQ publishes the name changes somewhere or use rider IDs to flag name changes automatically in the spreadsheet.
Since we are kind of starved for CQ action right now and while we wait for skidmark to kick off the 2023 edition, I decided to compute best possible team if we had access to every single rider of every year the game was run. A sort of hall of fame of CQ picks if you will.
Total Score: 41925 (559%)
Price: 7500
Funny to see Kittel and Henao on there twice. Cobo and Remco the best zero pointers of all time. Remco also the most expensive rider to feature. 2012, 2021 and 2022 feature pretty heavily (although every year is represented at the moment) which is consistent with the fact that those were also the best scoring years in general.
| Rider | Year | Cost | Score |
|---|---|---|---|
| COBO ACEBO Juan Jose | 2011 | 0 | 1048 |
| KITTEL Marcel | 2011 | 60 | 1041 |
| BOONEN Tom | 2012 | 502 | 2202 |
| HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis | 2012 | 190 | 1136 |
| ROGERS Michael | 2012 | 137 | 1074 |
| MOSER Moreno | 2012 | 78 | 1036 |
| BOUHANNI Nacer | 2012 | 136 | 845 |
| COQUARD Bryan | 2013 | 33 | 742 |
| GERRANS Simon | 2014 | 511 | 1736 |
| HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis | 2015 | 92 | 916 |
| KITTEL Marcel | 2016 | 164 | 1198 |
| VIVIANI Elia | 2017 | 275 | 1384 |
| TEUNS Dylan | 2017 | 150 | 1015 |
| CANOLA Marco | 2017 | 123 | 905 |
| DE BUYST Jasper | 2017 | 50 | 710 |
| YATES Simon | 2018 | 858 | 2261 |
| ACKERMANN Pascal | 2018 | 134 | 1275 |
| POGACAR Tadej | 2019 | 361 | 1519 |
| EVENEPOEL Remco | 2019 | 0 | 952 |
| HIGUITA GARCIA Sergio Andres | 2019 | 119 | 914 |
| BETTIOL Alberto | 2019 | 50 | 781 |
| ALMEIDA Joao Pedro Gonçalves | 2020 | 112 | 1114 |
| COLBRELLI Sonny | 2021 | 347 | 1823 |
| BERNAL GOMEZ Egan Arley | 2021 | 450 | 1736 |
| MOHORIC Matej | 2021 | 302 | 1310 |
| VINGEGAARD RASMUSSEN Jonas | 2021 | 107 | 1254 |
| CAVENDISH Mark | 2021 | 15 | 990 |
| LAPORTE Christophe | 2021 | 136 | 952 |
| EVENEPOEL Remco | 2022 | 1325 | 3154 |
| DE LIE Arnaud | 2022 | 57 | 1439 |
| MARTINEZ POVEDA Daniel Felipe | 2022 | 311 | 1278 |
| HINDLEY Jai | 2022 | 137 | 1181 |
| AYUSO PESQUERA Juan | 2022 | 178 | 1004 |
Total Score: 41925 (559%)
Price: 7500
Funny to see Kittel and Henao on there twice. Cobo and Remco the best zero pointers of all time. Remco also the most expensive rider to feature. 2012, 2021 and 2022 feature pretty heavily (although every year is represented at the moment) which is consistent with the fact that those were also the best scoring years in general.
Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
Do you have easy access to the selection numbers for those riders? It would be interesting* to see the best rare/unique picks (or the totally overlooked).
*to me at least
Rider | Picks | Contestants | % picked |
COBO ACEBO Juan Jose | 35 | 88 | 39,77 |
KITTEL Marcel | 2 | 88 | 2,27 |
BOONEN Tom | 76 | 126 | 60,32 |
HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis | 73 | 126 | 57,94 |
ROGERS Michael | 66 | 126 | 52,38 |
MOSER Moreno | 24 | 126 | 19,05 |
BOUHANNI Nacer | 2 | 126 | 1,59 |
COQUARD Bryan | 47 | 132 | 35,61 |
GERRANS Simon | 20 | 150 | 13,33 |
HENAO MONTOYA Sergio Luis | 133 | 155 | 85,81 |
KITTEL Marcel | 132 | 144 | 91,67 |
VIVIANI Elia | 103 | 131 | 78,63 |
TEUNS Dylan | 26 | 131 | 19,85 |
CANOLA Marco | 0 | 131 | 0,00 |
DE BUYST Jasper | 0 | 131 | 0,00 |
YATES Simon | 4 | 129 | 3,10 |
ACKERMANN Pascal | 6 | 129 | 4,65 |
POGACAR Tadej | 7 | 114 | 6,14 |
EVENEPOEL Remco | 89 | 114 | 78,07 |
HIGUITA GARCIA Sergio Andres | 2 | 114 | 1,75 |
BETTIOL Alberto | 92 | 114 | 80,70 |
ALMEIDA Joao Pedro Gonçalves | 19 | 113 | 16,81 |
COLBRELLI Sonny | 18 | 93 | 19,35 |
BERNAL GOMEZ Egan Arley | 83 | 93 | 89,25 |
MOHORIC Matej | 5 | 93 | 5,38 |
VINGEGAARD RASMUSSEN Jonas | 9 | 93 | 9,68 |
CAVENDISH Mark | 19 | 93 | 20,43 |
LAPORTE Christophe | 32 | 93 | 34,41 |
EVENEPOEL Remco | 35 | 91 | 38,46 |
DE LIE Arnaud | 18 | 91 | 19,78 |
MARTINEZ POVEDA Daniel Felipe | 33 | 91 | 36,26 |
HINDLEY Jai | 64 | 91 | 70,33 |
AYUSO PESQUERA Juan | 57 | 91 | 62,64 |
Kittel (2016) is the most popular here which is hardly surprising sinceI believe it was the most popular pick ever (in terms of % of contestant that picked a certain rider) in the main game. There's only two complete whiffs for the community, ironically both in 2017: De Buyst and Canola. Bouhanni, Kittel (2011) and Higuita are the least picked riders that were actually selected by somebody with 2 picks each. Maybe we'll see the first unique pick to crack the hall of fame team this year ? The average hall of fame pick gets picked by 35% of contestants which is pretty good all things considered. With De Buyst and Bouhanni among the "weaker" picks in the team, they should make way for presumably more popular guys soon so that number should rise. I forgot to mention it in my last post but Almeida deserves a shout-out for cracking the team during the Covid shortened 2020. With hindsight, Pogacar so unpopular just seems wrong (but I guess it made sense, he was pretty expensive for a neo pro, I know that's why I staid away at least).
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Technically he should since it was not deemed a anti-doping violation. However, like Groenewegen, there have been riders treated with the dopers rule if they've had a significant non doping related suspension. If we go by that precedent and the spirit of the rule, considering the TDF was a big chunk of points wiped out from Nairo's score, I think going with his 2021 score makes the most sense. I can't say I have strong feelings either way and I think skidmark will figure out the best course of action.
Has been relatively easy to put a team together the last three years due to the interrupted schedules, but back to reality this year and am really struggling, though I think more than usual in a 'normal' year, Can't see any value above 600 points and not much in the 3-500 range? Can see a lot of riders being selected by default, just because I like them, which is probably not the most optimal strategy.
Hey everyone! Just a note to say the 2023 game thread will be up and running in the next 48 hours. Apologies for the radio silence, had to focus on life things for the last little bit.
EITB, I'll try to dig up the 2018 year-end file and send it your way so you can complete those stats! Great to look at that list, and interesting to remember who I did pick and (especially) who I almost picked or just overlooked.
EITB, I'll try to dig up the 2018 year-end file and send it your way so you can complete those stats! Great to look at that list, and interesting to remember who I did pick and (especially) who I almost picked or just overlooked.
I've got approximately half of both of those figures, just not seeing it so far this season. Need to dig a bit deeper during Twixmas, otherwise known as CQ week.FYI I have updated the 2018 thread with the current link for the year-end file, but also here is the current link in case you don't want to hunt for it. On that note, I should say I've been moving files to create space so old years' links generally don't work. Except I've left the links to the last update of each year active so that those will be there for reference. But if anyone for any reason wanted a specific update, just let me know and I'm happy to send it, it's just on a different drive so the links aren't active.
Thanks for that. Looks like Yates was picked 4 times and Ackermann 6 times. I'll update the post with the hall of fame team to reflect those numbers.
Haven't really looked at this until now. Fun stuff! Impressive how almost all those guys were actually picked, too.
Does this make De Lie the best pick ever? Certainly a case to be made for that. Rare enough to give those of us who picked him a major advantage, and not so rare as to render himself almost irrelevant in the game (what I mean here is the likelihood of influencing some of the outcomes near the top of the standings). He can be found in a lot of the top 10 teams despite only being picked only 18 times. He helped me get a 6th place despite my top 3 most expensive picks finishing in the red when put together and me having to fight a lot of Remco teams.
Same case could be made for Colbrelli in 2021 too, who has a similar monstrous return compared to cost, even among the names on your all-time optimal team. Incidently, he kept me in the running the year before, against Remco again! But Object, who eventually held on for the win, had another inspired pick from your list, Mark Cavendish at 15 points at a time when everyone except 19 managers had lost all faith in him. Another impact pick, there.
Could also argue that the rarest picks from your list are the best. Your Bouhanni pick from 2012 stands out there (couldn't find the other person who picked him - they were not in the top 10). But I guess Kittel from 2011 must be the winner based on this criteria. With 2019 Higuita as the third guy on the podium. All the mentioned were picked by only two people.
I think it depends on which criterion you use to define best pick. A very simple way to look at it would be finding the picks that have scored more than all the cheaper alternatives. That only leaves Cobo, De Lie, Colbrelli, Boonen, Yates and Evenepoel. Considering Yates costed 350 points more than Boonen for only an extra 60 points scored we can safely rule him out of the ‘best’ competition. I think most people would rather pay the extra 57 points from Cobo to De Lie for an additional 400 points scored and I’d have Boonen sligtly ahead of Colbrelli. Then it comes down to personal preference to order the podium (De Lie, Boonen and Evenepoel) according to how much you value an expensive pick still returning a big profit vs the best value in a vacuum.
If you define best by which pick had the biggest impact on the eventual winner of their edition of the game it’s harder to make a case for De Lie since he wasn’t picked by the winning team (it would be intersting to see how many of those guys actually ended up on the winning teams). It's probably Boonen then because he single handedly eliminated 40% of participants from having any chance and he did feature on the winning team.
Bouhanni was always the pick I was most proud of but I'd hardly call it the best ever. It's hard to beat the satisfaction of a rare pick doing well but there's objectively better picks out there. What was especially satisfying was that he was a core member of my team and not some last minute addition. Now I have Zingle right up there with Bouhanni because he performed almost as well and he was a similarly unpopular pick. Back in January I talked about how I had a core of six riders that I picked before considering everybody else. I'm sure that having Zingle on that list must have looked weird at the time so it's nice to be vindicated. The other 5 were more of a mixed bag: Vermeersch (whiff), Dumoulin (whiff but I had him for defensive reasons I didn't really expect him to turn back the clock and be is old self again), Pinot (did ok), Ayuso (did great) and Evenepoel (did great).
If you define best by which pick had the biggest impact on the eventual winner of their edition of the game it’s harder to make a case for De Lie since he wasn’t picked by the winning team (it would be intersting to see how many of those guys actually ended up on the winning teams). It's probably Boonen then because he single handedly eliminated 40% of participants from having any chance and he did feature on the winning team.
Bouhanni was always the pick I was most proud of but I'd hardly call it the best ever. It's hard to beat the satisfaction of a rare pick doing well but there's objectively better picks out there. What was especially satisfying was that he was a core member of my team and not some last minute addition. Now I have Zingle right up there with Bouhanni because he performed almost as well and he was a similarly unpopular pick. Back in January I talked about how I had a core of six riders that I picked before considering everybody else. I'm sure that having Zingle on that list must have looked weird at the time so it's nice to be vindicated. The other 5 were more of a mixed bag: Vermeersch (whiff), Dumoulin (whiff but I had him for defensive reasons I didn't really expect him to turn back the clock and be is old self again), Pinot (did ok), Ayuso (did great) and Evenepoel (did great).
Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
I have wondered what the formula for a great pick is. It is not just return/cost, because then a 1 point rider finishing with 20 is way better than a a 30 point rider who scores 350, which is clearly nonsense. But nor can it simply be profit gained (return-cost), because paying 1000 to get 1100 can't be as good as getting 100 for a free pick.
So I guess it is some combination: return*(return-cost)/(cost + n), but what is n?
So I guess it is some combination: return*(return-cost)/(cost + n), but what is n?
Hakkie2, I think it was, made a case for 'n' being 250 points a while back, which sparked some debate. But that's the closest you get if you look only at return minus cost, because if all your riders made a profit of 250 points, you'd get slightly more than double your cost back, which has roughly been enough to be near the top for most years.
Your formula might be quite spot on from a mathematical standpoint, but I'm not good enough at pure mathematics to help you out there! The budget and team size constraints might need to be baked into it somehow.
I do know, however, that for a pick to be great in the context of one specific season, there are of course some other variables too, as you obviously know as well. Because a percentage return or profit (or combination thereof) which makes a rider a good pick one year can make him a not so good pick another year if there are other riders in the price range performing even better. And for competitive advantages, popularity can be part of the discussion too. But I guess it's theoretically possible to find a super complicated mathematical formula which takes all of this into account!
Let's say we would be allowed to pick unlimited number of riders, the rider prices were CQ+N and budget 7500+33*N. Note that if a selection of 33 riders is valid in current rules, it's valid in that game. If N=0, the optimal number of riders is more than 33. If N=1000, the optimal number of riders is less than 33. Somewhere in between, there is N where you would pick 33ish riders, even with no restrictions. In games with no restrictions other than budget, return/cost is the metric you want to use. But like said, that's also valid team in more restricted game (this), so it's the optimal team in this game. Hence, return/(cost+N) is the metric you want to use.
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