The 3 GT and 7 one-week races.

[Berniece]

Pogacar is no longer young, but we keep reading messages that Remco is and has to progress, even though he is only a year and four months younger and debuted in PRO the same year.

Was Pogacar also more than 400 days injured during his career?

 

[AmRacer]

Was Pogacar also more than 400 days injured during his career?

Last year, Pogi was injured at least 20 days after his crashes.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

You must not have read my posts. Read them again. Because I didnt say that and gave suggestions on schedules that may work. Including only the major races. Stuff can/will be added outside.

But as been pointed out, Pog wants to race the classics for now. And as long as Tour is also on his schedule as well, combining those, then likely… or he shouldnt be racing Vuelta. IMO.

He cant rest after LBL if Tour is on his schedule. He has to start preparing.

Do you follow?

It is only my perspective. But I do think I am right.

Okay, then my proposed schedule is something, Vuelta, something. I think it could work

 

[Salvarani]

Okay, then my proposed schedule is something, Vuelta, something. I think it could work

It could work, but probably not with classics (all four monuments in the spring) + Tour before it. It be will a risk that he could pay for both during and afterwards. Doing too much in one season. What he is doing with the classics and Tour is already a lot and the toughest he could take on. Forget about the race days.

Doing Vuelta, means something else has to be taken off. Either cobbled classics or not doing Tour. IMO.

Right now he is prioritizing the classics and the Tour, rather than doing a second GT later in the season.

 

[AmRacer]

It could work, but probably not with classics (all four monuments in the spring) + Tour before it. It be will a risk that he could pay for both during and afterwards. Doing too much. What he is doing with the classics and Tour is already a lot and the toughest he could take on. Forget about the race days.

Doing Vuelta, means something else has to be taken off. Either cobbles classics or not doing Tour. IMO.

Right now he is prioritizing the classics and the Tour, rather than doing a second GT later in the season.

If he goes to LA in 2028, maybe he skip the Tour.

 

[Salvarani]

If he goes to LA in 2028, maybe he skip the Tour.

Maybe, unless the Tour is the best prep. Something to think about.

I guess it really depends on how it goes in the classics and what he wants to win the most, if he wants to continue there or not.

I think winning PR would open up more possibilties with the schedule, since he could opt to skip the cobbles after that. He would free himself up to maybe go for Tour-Vuelta or Giro-Vuelta, if doing two GTs instead of cobbles. Who knows.

 

[AmRacer]

Maybe, unless the Tour is the best prep. Something to think about.

I guess it really depends on how it goes in the classics and what he wants to win the most, if he wants to continue there or not.

I think winning PR would open up more possibilties with the schedule, since he could opt to skip the cobbles after that. He would free himself up to maybe go for Tour-Vuelta or Giro-Vuelta, if doing two GTs instead of cobbles. Who knows.

Winning PR would open for Itzulia too. There's not much rest between the Tour and Olympics and time zones to mitigate. if has won 5-6 Tours, I think he skip it 2028.

 

[Cookster15]

For Pogi, winning P-R would add way more to his legacy than winning an ugly sister GT during the late 2020s.

For Pogi maybe. Not necessarily to an outsider looking objectively. That ugly sister GT was still important to riders of Contador and Froome's calibre.

He came 2nd to MVDP last year with a crash. But what if he never wins P-R and ends his career with no Vuelta victory? To me you can't be sad about missing a long shot. Missing the easy win when you had the chance isn't good either.

In not winning all three GTs he would finish his career with an inferior record in that regard to riders like Contador, Nibali and Froome. And I don't think anyone would say those guys are on the same planet.

Why is it not possible to win the Vuelta first then tick off P-R once that box is ticked?

p.s. - I am still undecided on this after reading the replies from yourself, Salvarani and James.

 

[AmRacer]

For Pogi maybe. Not necessarily to an outsider looking objectively. That ugly sister GT was still important to riders of Contador and Froome's calibre.

He came 2nd to MVDP last year with a crash. But what if he never wins P-R and ends his career with no Vuelta victory? To me you can't be sad about missing a long shot. Missing the easy win when you had the chance isn't good either.

In not winning all three GTs he would finish his career with an inferior record in that regard to riders like Contador, Nibali and Froome. And I don't think anyone would say those guys are on the same planet.

Why is it not possible to win the Vuelta first then tick off P-R once that box is ticked?

p.s. - I am still undecided on this after reading the replies from yourself, Salvarani and James.

I think Pogi will skip the Tour 2028 due to the Olympics, and then he can race the Giro and still do spring classics.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Active riders who won more of these races than Remco:

Carapaz
Bernal
Schachmann
Daniel Martinez
Quintana
Jorgensen
Adam yates


In stage races Remco is the level of Marc soler, higuita, hindley, Carlos Rodriguez etc. but apparently he gets to be in the list instead of those guys.

 

[hayneplane]

For Pogi maybe. Not necessarily to an outsider looking objectively. That ugly sister GT was still important to riders of Contador and Froome's calibre.

He came 2nd to MVDP last year with a crash. But what if he never wins P-R and ends his career with no Vuelta victory? To me you can't be sad about missing a long shot. Missing the easy win when you had the chance isn't good either.

In not winning all three GTs he would finish his career with an inferior record in that regard to riders like Contador, Nibali and Froome. And I don't think anyone would say those guys are on the same planet.

Why is it not possible to win the Vuelta first then tick off P-R once that box is ticked?

p.s. - I am still undecided on this after reading the replies from yourself, Salvarani and James.

True up to a point. Indurain never got himself a Vuelta win but I doubt anyone other than the Shark of Messina’s biggest superfan would claim Nibali has a better Grand Tour record than Big Mig just because he has the full set.

 

[Salvarani]

For Pogi maybe. Not necessarily to an outsider looking objectively. That ugly sister GT was still important to riders of Contador and Froome's calibre.

He came 2nd to MVDP last year with a crash. But what if he never wins P-R and ends his career with no Vuelta victory? To me you can't be sad about missing a long shot. Missing the easy win when you had the chance isn't good either.

In not winning all three GTs he would finish his career with an inferior record in that regard to riders like Contador, Nibali and Froome. And I don't think anyone would say those guys are on the same planet.

Why is it not possible to win the Vuelta first then tick off P-R once that box is ticked?

p.s. - I am still undecided on this after reading the replies from yourself, Salvarani and James.

But Contador and Froome where never winning monuments or worlds. They were "only" GC-riders and in a different era.

What about the Evans WC? How does that stack up objectively... would you take it away for him winning a Vuelta instead?

Back to Pog. He rode PR and finished 2nd... keep the momentum. Go there again. He did it once with great success. Try again. Cant really fault the guy if that is what he would just like to do, instead of trying to win the Vuelta right now.

As many pointed out. The Vuelta is just not that important of a race. Especially if you already have 4 Tours and a Giro to your name, when GC is also not the end or be all for ones palmares. Not while still being only, how I would phrase it, 27 and still at your very best. Vuelta will still be there and if he ends up never winning it... then that just what it is.

The Vuelta is right now tough to schedule. The downside would be him not racing the cobbles and doing Tour-Vuelta instead... but that could also mean he would be too tired in Worlds + Lombardia. Just look at Vinge after this Vuelta.

So skip Vuelta...

To maximize his own chances to be able to target Flanders, PR, Worlds and Lombardia instead of it... is this even a choice?

Of course, it is skip Vuelta for now.

Im sure he would like to be able to retire one day... having won all three GTs, but give it time.

Im also sure he would like to win MSR and PR, while MVDP is still there. It would be deserved and a great achievement if he beats him. Just like he did in Flanders. I want to see more great battles between them.

And as I said in another post, I just think he does not find the GTs and everything around it very fun. So if he doesnt have to do two GTs, for the time being, and "only" Tour + all the monuments... thats is what he would like to do. Especially, when worlds is on a course that suits him. Like this year.

It will also be harder to win MSR and PR later imo. Try to win them while you are hot.

And as someone else said, when Vuelta might make more sense in a couple of seasons to target... he will ride it again.

But the future is hard to predict. Who really knows. Take nothing for granted, which goes for any race on this list being discussed. For any of these riders. They have all achieved quite a lot.

 

[James M]

For Pogi maybe. Not necessarily to an outsider looking objectively. That ugly sister GT was still important to riders of Contador and Froome's calibre.

He came 2nd to MVDP last year with a crash. But what if he never wins P-R and ends his career with no Vuelta victory? To me you can't be sad about missing a long shot. Missing the easy win when you had the chance isn't good either.

In not winning all three GTs he would finish his career with an inferior record in that regard to riders like Contador, Nibali and Froome. And I don't think anyone would say those guys are on the same planet.

Why is it not possible to win the Vuelta first then tick off P-R once that box is ticked?

p.s. - I am still undecided on this after reading the replies from yourself, Salvarani and James.

What are you undecided about? That winning PR for Pogacar would be far greater for him than winning the Vuelta, or something else? Because that’s what I addressed only. Its not even close in terms of difficulty for anyone who has already won a GT and then tries to win PR versus the Vuelta? Historically or for anyone watching now. Its pretty self‑explanatory based on the records alone, no? And he already finished second, which speaks volumes btw in itself because thats a factual result but thats besides my point so nvm that.

If he doesn’t win the Vuelta, of course it would sting for him more than anyone I don’t disagree with you at all there but that’s beside my point and what I replied to. Im just saying different races hold different values depending on the rider and what they’ve already won. It mattered a lot to Contador and Froome, but objectively everyone knows theyre different types and calibre riders? as great as they were(Pistolero fan here) Saying anything else would be objectively false no? So using them as a comparison of importance to them is a false premise to begin with imo.

Both things can be true at the same time here, its just matter of context imo wether you mean in general or Pogacar or anyone else for that matter, I dont think its more deep than that.

 

[Cookster15]

If he doesn’t win the Vuelta, of course it would sting for him more than anyone I don’t disagree with you at all there

This was my only point. Pogacar has an opportunity window based upon his age. People are now starting to discuss when his career might end and at what age. Nobody can predict when an athlete will decline.

And I disagree that one day races - even P-R - get harder to win when riders are older. It is actually grand tours that get harder to win as your recovery declines.

I don't disagree that winning PR can be a more difficult challenge for a rider of his ilk than winning a grand tour. But in setting the bar too high he might leave himself short elsewhere. Its his career and still the best since Merckyx so I respect that. But I am a numbers man and to me it would seem incomplete if he never won that ugly sister GT knowing what he has achieved already.

Hopefully he proves me wrong and wins P-R and also a Vuelta later. But that is just one reason why I will never be a Tadej Pogacar

 

[CyclistAbi]

Note that this thread is predominantly stage race orientated hence in depth discussions about one day races are a bit misplaced.

 

[Cookster15]

Note that this thread is predominantly stage race orientated hence in depth discussions about one day races are a bit misplaced.

Good catch. We were discussing Pog's palmeres missing the Vuelta. That can't really be discussed without discussing the one day races he is targeting whilst ignoring the Vuelta.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Good catch. We were discussing Pog's palmeres missing the Vuelta. That can't really be discussed without discussing the one day races he is targeting whilst ignoring the Vuelta.

I mean winning all stage races and all monuments, here likely Pogi is the only one in such category. As for Vuelta vs PR i feel that it doesn't even make sense to discuss it like that. This is something that relates to a single rider anyway. IMHO if Pogi won't win both at some point in the future he will be disappointed. For now what we can say is Vuelta is the one that got away.

 

[Salvarani]

This was my only point. Pogacar has an opportunity window based upon his age. People are now starting to discuss when his career might end and at what age. Nobody can predict when an athlete will decline.

And I disagree that one day races - even P-R - get harder to win when riders are older. It is actually grand tours that get harder to win as your recovery declines.

I don't disagree that winning PR can be a more difficult challenge for a rider of his ilk than winning a grand tour. But in setting the bar too high he might leave himself short elsewhere. Its his career and still the best since Merckyx so I respect that. But I am a numbers man and to me it would seem incomplete if he never won that ugly sister GT knowing what he has achieved already.

Hopefully he proves me wrong and wins P-R and also a Vuelta later. But that is just one reason why I will never be a Tadei Pogacar

I dont think that is necessarily true.

At an "older" age after years of racing and hard training... ones engine and endurance can still be great. Especially, when it comes to GC and GTs. Just as tougher and longer one-day races is somewhere where one of "older" age can be competitive. It doesnt have to be an age-limit in that regard. Just look at some of the best marathon runners and whatnot.

Just look at the average age for the winner of the Vuelta... in the last 20 years. Then look at others ones as well. Few riders win a GT at a relatively young age. Guys like Pog and even Remco, is very rare in that regard.

Any race... whether a one-day race or a stage-race.... will be harder to win as one gets older. As time is running out for the professional career.

And how, when and where... in what order... that is truly up to the athlete in this regard. What races they value and want to race. What is feasible and what races works to target in one single season.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Just look at the average age for the winner of the Vuelta... in the last 20 years.

It is interesting on how some used to say Vuelta is for kids and is now perceived as a GT race for more mature riders.

 

[Salvarani]

It is interesting on how some used to say Vuelta is for kids and is now perceived as a GT race for more mature riders.

Usually it is the GT, where one makes their GT-debut... so maybe for that season.

And where one might have a breakthrough.

As far as winners though, that seems to be another story.

 

[James M]

I don't disagree that winning PR can be a more difficult challenge for a rider of his ilk than winning a grand tour. But in setting the bar too high he might leave himself short elsewhere. But I am a numbers man and to me it would seem incomplete if he never won that ugly sister GT knowing what he has achieved already.

Hopefully he proves me wrong and wins P-R and also a Vuelta later. But that is just one reason why I will never be a Tadei Pogacar

For sure. MSR might never be won without luck imo. It wouldnt be complete if he didn’t win the Vuelta and indeed sting him, but theres no excuses, but thats a BIG if, considering the gap he has on everyone once the road goes uphill. And heres the thing in regard to that, they know more than us what the numbers are saying, they know when he even start flatting out and stop improving and they monitize all, its not random for them at all as in you see signs and trends atleast in advance.

Knowing that, I can understand the prioritizing he’s doing atm, and thats where I’m coming from regarding the Vuelta. Personally want to see him ride it too sooner the better, but thats beside the point. He’s also been on record saying he wants to win it, so I’d assume he’d emphasize it more if he himself were stressed about it. There are no excuses, hes just trying to do it all, like you said and it naturaly just has its price and its suppose to as its unprecedented in modern day specialized era.

About GT curiously enough, indeed about recovery etc its integral in Tour you can historically get away with it older in Vuelta. But if you watch the timeline GTs now since were evolving (tour results) do seem to be becoming a young man’s game more and more, in line with the evolution of modern cycling and the intensity compared to last decade even. The sample size is too small to conclude ofc, might be random, but it’s indeed an interesting trend to follow nonetheless also.

 

[Salvarani]

For sure. MSR might never be won without luck imo. It wouldnt be complete if he didn’t win the Vuelta and indeed sting him, but theres no excuses, but thats a BIG if, considering the gap he has on everyone once the road goes uphill. And heres the thing in regard to that, they know more than us what the numbers are saying, they know when he even start flatting out and stop improving and they monitize others its not totally random for them at all as in you see signs and trends.

Knowing that, I can understand the prioritizing he’s doing atm, and thats where I’m coming from regarding the Vuelta. Personally want to see him ride it too sooner the better, but thats beside the point. He’s also been on record saying he wants to win it, so I’d assume he’d emphasize it more if he himself were stressed about it. There are no excuses, hes just trying to do it all, like you said and it naturaly just has its price and its suppose to as its unprecedented in modern day specialized era.

About GT curiously enough, indeed about recovery etc its integral in Tour you can historically get away with it older in Vuelta. But if you watch the timeline GTs now since were evolving (tour results) do seem to be becoming a young man’s game more and more, in line with the evolution of modern cycling and the intensity compared to last decade even. The sample size is too small to conclude ofc, might be random, but it’s indeed an interesting trend to follow nonetheless also.

I think that it is more cyclical than one think.

Ulrich, Cunego, Contador, Schleck, Quintana, Bernal... were all young making great GC-results. From the top of my head.

Just like guys like Pog and Remco.

It is has more to do with talent of the rider and most of them usually stick around for many years at top level. Not all, but most.

Then you are gonna have the late bloomers making their way to become stars as well.

I think the main riders just change every other 5 to 10 years. When start looking at the top 3 for each edition of the main races... one could actually visibly start to see this and when the change happens. When the same names start popping up for the next 3-5 years, while others doesnt seem to appear anymore. Just sometimes there is one that keeps popping up... for many more years then the "normal". Like one mr Valverde.

 

[James M]

It is has more to do with talent of the rider and most of them usually stick around for many years at top level.

The main riders just change every other 5 to 10 years.

Ive thought about this too and most likely indeed is just that.

Its however unquestionable that cycling has evolved in terms of intensity throughout compared to last decade even, just interesting side bit to follow if not anything else knowing the emphasize on intensity throughout now vs before.

 

[Salvarani]

Ive thought about this too and most likely indeed is just that.

Its however unquestionable that cycling has evolved in terms of intensity throughout compared to last decade even, just interesting side bit to follow if not anything else knowing the emphasize on intensity throughout now vs before.

Sure, Im just not too sure about the claim.

Great young riders have always appeared, was my point. It is not a new thing.

And main ones winning the biggest races, rarely change more than every other 5 to 10 years.

How races goes. Instensity. Tactics. That always evolves or changes with the times. Whats the new meta. Other sports experiences things like that as well from time to time.

 

[Tanakka]

For Pogi maybe. Not necessarily to an outsider looking objectively. That ugly sister GT was still important to riders of Contador and Froome's calibre.

I think you are mixing up 'outsider looking objectively' and many 'causal fans'.

An outsider who follows cycling properly, knows that a PR would be bigger than a Vuelta.
Some casual fans, especially from the USA or sometimes even southern europe, basically are barely aware of the existence of monuments/classics.

Froome and Contador never came close to winning RVV and such, so are in completely different position/discussion.

In not winning all three GTs he would finish his career with an inferior record in that regard to riders like Contador, Nibali and Froome.

Pogi: 4 TdF; 1 Giro
Contador: 2 TdF; 2 Giro; 3 Vuelta
Nibali: 1TdF; 2 Giro; 1 Vuelta
Froome: 4 TdF; 1 Giro; 2 Vuelta

Contador, arguable, but he's already ahead of Nibali.

# of TdF > winning all three GTs
at least to a certain extent.
Once you hold 6-8 TdF, most likely winning a Vuelta too adds more to your palmares.