on his defense, i think there are too many WT teams, that they should not be imposed to do all WT calendar, and there should be more invitees in the peloton which was reduced this season. but this is an off-topic subject
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Libertine Seguros said:Victims of timing, with the upsurge again in Spanish ProConti teams and with so few WT teams from Spain and Italy, the national flavour of the home Tour is heavily eroded. It is not surprising that Spanish ProConti teams are preferred for the Vuelta (the one other team is a team whose sponsor is a major sponsor of the Vuelta also) and Italian ones for the Giro, surely - especially given one of those Spanish wildcard teams functions as a de facto home team for a very passionate cycling region which is hosting an important mountain stage in the race. I can only really make a case for ABS vs. Burgos-BH, as I'm not sure which of their riders is expected to add the same kind of audience investment as some of the prospects on the Euskadi team. The stage win for Denifl last year was spectacular, definitely, and was the team's defining contribution, but the fan connection problem that comes from their over-reliance on established journeymen that led to the debate over the value of the wildcard last year has not changed so with two Spanish teams stepping up to the ProConti level and with two wildcards almost certain with the long-established Caja Rural wildcard and Cofidis' close relationship with Unipublic, they and Manzana were always going to be the most likely wildcard teams from 2017 to miss out going forward.
PeterB said:Someone please explain how it works in the sport of cycling to this guy. His team, his project, but if he gets invitation at the expense of another team and another project, that is okay? I am a fan of this team but the sooner they understand the reality the better.FilipeFD said:Just another kicking for team @AquaBlueSport . It’s confirmed, no Grand Tour.
https://twitter.com/RickDelaneyABS/status/983669891910729728
With Androni it' not that simple, they were really foussed on winning the Coppa Italia and geting a sure Giro Wildcard by being the best PCT team on the Italian scene, so they didn't want to race man races that woul interfere with the Italian racing calender, Tour de Suisse would hve mad sense, but many other races wouldn't fit well with their scedule/priorities.EroicaStradeBianche said:Last year a team like Androni (they had Bernal at their disposal, and arrived 3rd in UCI Europe Team classification) did 2 WT races: Milan-Sanremo and Tirreno-Adriatico, this is the professionals' world. If no one outside of italy gave any sort of Wildcard to Savio when he had Bernal what does Aqua Blue expect to achieve with the results they have this season?
If you have ties with the organizers you get the WT races, otherwise you've to race outside the WT. The big question is: does the professional continental category has still a reason to exist? With the current system they can't do anything, the WT is a closed system: Cannondale did not win a WT for 2 years but their presence at every WT race isn't threatened. Ok, the biggest French Pro Conti have all what they want (racing the ASO races) but the others? Pozzato and Chavanel left home for the Ronde van Vlaanderen like if the already retired after a top 10 last year, only an example.
Of course performance has no relationship to the invites setup. The wildcards are the only area of freedom that the race organizers have to affect who rides their race, and they have more factors in play than quality of the team. Last year Aqua Blue got an invite because there were not many home teams, this year they don't as the number of home teams has increased. It is to be expected. Would I have been disappointed if they got in instead of Burgos? No, not really. The race doesn't go through Burgos province, the team has less quality on the roster and Aqua Blue won a stage last year. But I would have been shocked had they had an invite and any of the other three not been invited. Cofidis because of the sponsorship deal, Caja Rural because they've proven an established and long-running part of the national péloton through the times of hardship, and Euskadi-Murias because they've got an interesting team with some good young prospects, passionate fans and the race passes through their home area.Zinoviev Letter said:The issue is that performance has no relationship to invites in the current set up. There’s no objective qualification system for PCT teams and there probably won’t ever be, but there’s no evidence whatsoever that performances in big races - including in the race that any given invite is for - play any role in the subjective decision making of race organizers. Two things matter this year - whether a team is from the organiser’s country and whether a team pays the organisers a load of money. The only wild card across the three GTs that doesn’t obviously tick one or both of those boxes is Wanty (and I wouldn’t be entirely sure about them not ticking the latter box).
It’s not only the GTs either. The same home teams or pay to play teams get almost all of the invites to the WT week long races too. That’s the real calendar killer for any team not from Spain/France etc. Any team should be able to survive missing out on a GT - there can only be 11 invited after all. But when missing out on a GT means missing out on almost any prominent stage race that’s another problem entirely.
The point about “established journeymen” is total nonsense, by the way. It reflects only this forum’s prejudices that Mediterranean journeymen are more interesting than Northern European ones. Every PCT team is mostly made up of journeymen and aquablue’s assortment of them is higher quality than most other PCT teams. The main difference between them and the likes of Burgos is that their riders all are pro quality while many of those on Burgos and some other teams with wildcards are basically Conti riders who were never good enough for a contract and aren’t particularly young. For that matter Aquablue signed two of the most highly touted espoirs this year. Only Androni has higher profile first year neopros in the whole division. The four invitees to the Vuelta don’t have a single first year pro between them with the espoir record of either Dunbar or Pedersen.
There’s an argument to be made that Unipublic has a responsibility to Spanish cycling and that means that they have to invite all three Spanish teams. That’s reasonable enough. But confusing that argument with one about quality is horse excrement. None of those three teams (including this year’s incarnation of Caja Rural) would have a hope in hell of an invite were they not Spanish and everyone knows it.
But at the same time, you can't claim a few near-misses with Blythe as a positive for ABS and a justification for them being given race invites at the same time as deriding the team of Nacer Bouhanni as anonymous and not deserving of invites. Nacer may not have won a GT stage in the red of Cofidis but he's clearly and justifiably a much, much bigger draw.vedrafjord said:With the disclaimer that I'm Irish, I think Delaney's complaint is that there's no fair path for progression - Pro Conti has fallen way behind World Tour and they were the only PC team that won a GT stage last year (and had a few near-misses with Blythe), plus they animated every race they were in, but they've learned that that counts for nothing for wildcards. In GT terms it's becoming a closed shop. Cofidis get TdF and Vuelta invites every year even though they are anonymous and haven't won a GT stage in 4 years. Anyway, this is a distraction. We need to start our own pro classics races in Ireland. We have much bigger hills than Belgium, much worse country roads, and our climate is much, much windier.
Add to that Cofidis also signed the Herrada brothers during the transfer period last year. You can be fairly certain they will be racing the Vuelta. Nacer most likely the Tour.Libertine Seguros said:But at the same time, you can't claim a few near-misses with Blythe as a positive for ABS and a justification for them being given race invites at the same time as deriding the team of Nacer Bouhanni as anonymous and not deserving of invites. Nacer may not have won a GT stage in the red of Cofidis but he's clearly and justifiably a much, much bigger draw.vedrafjord said:With the disclaimer that I'm Irish, I think Delaney's complaint is that there's no fair path for progression - Pro Conti has fallen way behind World Tour and they were the only PC team that won a GT stage last year (and had a few near-misses with Blythe), plus they animated every race they were in, but they've learned that that counts for nothing for wildcards. In GT terms it's becoming a closed shop. Cofidis get TdF and Vuelta invites every year even though they are anonymous and haven't won a GT stage in 4 years. Anyway, this is a distraction. We need to start our own pro classics races in Ireland. We have much bigger hills than Belgium, much worse country roads, and our climate is much, much windier.
Direct Energie did it too.vedrafjord said:With the disclaimer that I'm Irish, I think Delaney's complaint is that there's no fair path for progression - Pro Conti has fallen way behind World Tour and they were the only PC team that won a GT stage last year (and had a few near-misses with Blythe), plus they animated every race they were in, but they've learned that that counts for nothing for wildcards. In GT terms it's becoming a closed shop. Cofidis get TdF and Vuelta invites every year even though they are anonymous and haven't won a GT stage in 4 years. Anyway, this is a distraction. We need to start our own pro classics races in Ireland. We have much bigger hills than Belgium, much worse country roads, and our climate is much, much windier.
It’s pretty clear why Cofidis get the gig, though. They’re French. But yeah, they’ve been barely a factor in a major race in years.yaco said:It's a joke that Cofidis get a gig at the TDF each year - Go through their results and they've been non-competitive for a number of years - Their one wildcard should be at the Vuelta in which they are more competitive.
A look at the results of his team might help.Leinster said:Delaney is right that there ought to be a bit of transparency in why his team are getting passed over for major invites.
fauniera said:A look at the results of his team might help.Leinster said:Delaney is right that there ought to be a bit of transparency in why his team are getting passed over for major invites.
I don’t think they’d argue with you if you told them they were lucky to get in last year. And there was clearly a bit of “ah, sure por que no these guys?” about it from the organizers. But once in, they would argue they proved their worth, and should have been a reasonable draw to other big race organizers.hrotha said:That argument that Aqua Blue is using that it's all about nationality and payments, and that previous GT results should be the decisive factor, aren't all that convincing because they fail to explain how or why Acqua Blue should have got in last year in the first place.
One win. So impressive. In a race that had two World Tour teams and three ProConti teams.Zinoviev Letter said:His team has more pro wins this season than the three Spanish wildcards combined.
Wouldn't say that. Of course nationality and payments matter, the first one rightly so. But it is possible to overcome this by - shock! - being much better than the home teams. Which is not the case. Aqua Blue is a weak team and hasn't done anything noticeable this season.Zinoviev Letter said:Results have nothing to do with GT or other major stage race invites in the current set up. The only things that matter are (a) nationality and (b) payments to organisers.
Well, i get irritated by comments like this. Nobody said that only results matter, or that the invitation of Murias and Burgos reflect their results. Not sure where you get that from. But it should be clear even for you that the lack of results doesn't help if you want to get selected instead of the home teams, who of course have an advantage (and should have).Zinoviev Letter said:There are people who prefer that the Vuelta be full of Spanish wildcards, the Tour be full of French ones, the Giro be full of... well whatever teams pay RCS. That’s fair enough. There are people who don’t like the idea of another team of mostly anglophones and scandis and while I think that’s pretty silly I don’t really care enough to argue about it. But when people with those views insist on pretending that these preferences reflect results I get a bit irritated. That’s just dishonest.
fauniera said:One win. So impressive. In a race that had two World Tour teams and three ProConti teams.Zinoviev Letter said:His team has more pro wins this season than the three Spanish wildcards combined.
Wouldn't say that. Of course nationality and payments matter, the first one rightly so. But it is possible to overcome this by - shock! - being much better than the home teams. Which is not the case. Aqua Blue is a weak team and hasn't done anything noticeable this season.Zinoviev Letter said:Results have nothing to do with GT or other major stage race invites in the current set up. The only things that matter are (a) nationality and (b) payments to organisers.
Well, i get irritated by comments like this. Nobody said that only results matter, or that the invitation of Murias and Burgos reflect their results. Not sure where you get that from. But it should be clear even for you that the lack of results doesn't help if you want to get selected instead of the home teams, who of course have an advantage (and should have).Zinoviev Letter said:There are people who prefer that the Vuelta be full of Spanish wildcards, the Tour be full of French ones, the Giro be full of... well whatever teams pay RCS. That’s fair enough. There are people who don’t like the idea of another team of mostly anglophones and scandis and while I think that’s pretty silly I don’t really care enough to argue about it. But when people with those views insist on pretending that these preferences reflect results I get a bit irritated. That’s just dishonest.