The Banesto Train in the mountains

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Mar 19, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
As an aside, I reckon Miguel would have beaten Lance in 1999, 2003..
On equal programmes, bikes and teams, yes.

Not so sure about 20th century doped Mig beaming beamed to the future to take on modern doped and protected Lance. That would imply Lance had no real freaks to take him on, which is unfair to the talent of his opponents.
 
Nov 26, 2010
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Mar 18, 2009
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Just to say I too remember the Indurain era and talk of a Banesto Train is utter ******** - Insurain did his own work, didn't have to be dragged up the climbs by his domestiques
 
Jun 12, 2011
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Exroadman24902 said:
some samples of the strong teams Indurain had.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/tour-de-france/473963/tour-de-france-video-archive-the-indurain-years-91-95.html

As an aside, I reckon Miguel would have beaten Lance in 1999, 2003..
Oh,FFS,a strong team does not necessarily mean they DOMINATED the mountains,which is the very claim you made when you started this thread.All you're doing now,as previously noted,is trying to move the goal posts.Just give it up,as BS has been called and you've been caught out.

Whether Mig doped,or if he could beat LA "all things being equal" is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand-which,once again,you started.Here's an idea-I'll start a topic about,oh,let's say a sprint race on the moon.I'll state that rider "A" would whip riders "B","C" etc-then you have to PROVE me wrong.

I'd stand a better chance than you have of proving your initial claim.
 
Aug 19, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
Delgado was up in front for most of the climb and passed by Indurain near top. He would have waited had Indurain asked
And how does that support your argument of a Banesto train?

He was up front for much of the climb - presumably to offer up SOME support between getting caught and getting dropped.

I've offered up clips from key mountain stages from 1992, 1993, and 1994. No Banesto train.

I do recall seeing a snippets of the full Banesto team on the front during a minor mountain stage of the 1994 Tour - but it was very early on in the stage.
 

Polish

BANNED
Mar 11, 2009
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VeloCity said:
by 1994, so was everyone else doped to the gills with EPO. So why were Gewiss so dominant that year?

So did T-Mob and ONCE and probably every other top GT team. So why was USPS so dominant?

Let's put it this way: what's the one thing that Gewiss and USPS had in common?
USPS was dominant because of Lance and Bruyneel.
And a Best-in-World Team.
Not too difficult to grasp really.

Gewiss failed.
Zero TdF wins.
Donkey Berzin wins one Giro.
Hee Haw.

How many Tour de France Contenders worked with Dr Ferrari?
A fair amount of DangerMan. Strong riders most all of them (not Berzin lol)
How many of them won the Tour de France?
Only One.
How many times did the only one win?
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven.

T-Mob and ONCE had world class doping programs, yes.
But they did not have Lance & Bruyneel & THE Team.

Really VeloCity, let it go.
It is time to move on.
Lance's cycling awesomeness is beyond proven.
A decision has already been reached. Trial over lol.
It has been appealed and proven again. And again.
The appeal process has been exhausted. Its over.
Accept the facts and move on

It is time to join RR and Dr M and mewmewkitty and the others in attacking Lance's personal life and his accountancy techniques and his witness tamponing instead.
 
Polish said:
USPS was dominant because of Lance and Bruyneel.
And a Best-in-World Team.
Not too difficult to grasp really.

Gewiss failed.
Zero TdF wins.
Donkey Berzin wins one Giro.
Hee Haw.

How many Tour de France Contenders worked with Dr Ferrari?
A fair amount of DangerMan. Strong riders most all of them (not Berzin lol)
How many of them won the Tour de France?
Only One.
How many times did the only one win?
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven.

T-Mob and ONCE had world class doping programs, yes.
But they did not have Lance & Bruyneel & THE Team.

Really VeloCity, let it go.
It is time to move on.
Lance's cycling awesomeness is beyond proven.
A decision has already been reached. Trial over lol.
It has been appealed and proven again. And again.
The appeal process has been exhausted. Its over.
Accept the facts and move on

It is time to join RR and Dr M and mewmewkitty and the others in attacking Lance's personal life and his accountancy techniques and his witness tamponing instead.
Your posts always skirt the line between tongue in cheek and tongue up Lance's ***.
 
Aug 19, 2009
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Hugh Januss said:
Your posts always skirt the line between tongue in cheek and tongue up Lance's ***.
No offense, Polish, but I think that would be funnier if you said "Your posts always skirt the line between tongue in cheek and tongue in between cheeks - LA's."

Just a suggested edit... and nothing directed at Polish.
 
Bag_O_Wallet said:
No offense, Polish, but I think that would be funnier if you said "Your posts always skirt the line between tongue in cheek and tongue in between cheeks - LA's."

Just a suggested edit... and nothing directed at Polish.
Look, I'll do the comedy around here.;)
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Polish said:
How many Tour de France Contenders worked with Dr Ferrari?

How many of them won the Tour de France?
Only One.
Well two, if you want to count Landis, who worked directly with Ferrari. Or five, if you want to count Conconi's - ie Ferrari's mentor - clients, who included, at various times, Fignon, Roche, Pantani, and Indurain.

But yeah, your post just reinforces the point that USPS was by far the greatest doping team of all time, doesn't it? :)
 
May 24, 2011
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dbrmuz said:
Oh,FFS,a strong team does not necessarily mean they DOMINATED the mountains,which is the very claim you made when you started this thread.All you're doing now,as previously noted,is trying to move the goal posts.Just give it up,as BS has been called and you've been caught out.

Whether Mig doped,or if he could beat LA "all things being equal" is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand-which,once again,you started.Here's an idea-I'll start a topic about,oh,let's say a sprint race on the moon.I'll state that rider "A" would whip riders "B","C" etc-then you have to PROVE me wrong.

I'd stand a better chance than you have of proving your initial claim.
No buddy, you give up. Maybe also learn a little about the era you seek to argue about before posting on here
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
As an aside, I reckon Miguel would have beaten Lance in 1999, 2003..
Tough to say, and equally tough to say the '99-05 version of Armstrong would've beaten Indurain in '91-95. So many other factors and variables change over the years - not just doping of course, but training, nutrition, tactics, race routes, etc.

But it's interesting (and fun) to speculate: If Indurain were racing today, would he have become "Miguel Indurain"? If Armstrong had peaked in the early '90s, would he have become "Lance Armstrong"? Impossible to say, but imo probably not, for either - they were both products of their respective times and circumstances, and most likely wouldn't have had the success they did if they'd been racing at other times. Or, to look at it from a different angle, Ullrich probably would've been a 4-5 time Tour winner if he hadn't had the misfortune of his career coinciding with Armstrong's. Which is to say, in so many instances it's as much luck and timing - beneficial or detrimental - as it is ability.

I think there are only a very select few over the history of the sport who would've "dominated" no matter what period they raced (and setting the doping question aside) - Merckx, obviously, but also Lemond, Hinault, a few others (and maybe, possibly Contador, although still a bit too early in his career to say for sure). Totally my opinion of course, but I wouldn't put either Indurain or Armstrong in that category.
 
Exroadman24902 said:
No buddy, you give up. Maybe also learn a little about the era you seek to argue about before posting on here
You have lost credibility and are now starting to act like a ****.

Quite a few people on this thread inclduding myself remember the Indurain era and we all have the same recollections which differ's from your's. Please stop acting like you are the only one who remembers this era

Banesto had a strong team that rode tempo a lot in the mountain's but at no stage did they have a train which rode everyone of Indurain's wheel on the final climb each day. That is your claim that Banesto were the same as US Postal. You seem to be confusing riding 'tempo' with 'drilling it on the front'.

Also Banesto did not regularly sign big name climbers the way US Postal did, Delgado, Rondon, Jeff Bernard, Philipot were all at Banesto before Indurain won a Tour. When Bernard signed for Banesto, he had given up on his Tour ambitions. Afterwards the only 'names' they signed were Gerard Rue and Melchor Mauri. There were no Roberta Heras, Jose Azevedo, Paolo Salvodelli type signings.

You have provided 0% evidence of a Banesto train and despite us looking for footage the closest we have seen to a Banesto train is Jeff Bernard riding in front of Indurain at the foot of Alpe d'huez with Delgado sitting behind Indurain in a large group. Hardly a train 'drilling it'.

The likes of Bernard, Delgadoe, Rue were usually close by if Indurain needed assistance but it was usually Indurain himself fending for himself on the final climb. The only stage I remember being any different was to Alpe d'huez in 91 when Bernard rode tempo almost all the way.
 
May 24, 2011
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VeloCity said:
Tough to say, and equally tough to say the '99-05 version of Armstrong would've beaten Indurain in '91-95. So many other factors and variables change over the years - not just doping of course, but training, nutrition, tactics, race routes, etc.

But it's interesting (and fun) to speculate: If Indurain were racing today, would he have become "Miguel Indurain"? If Armstrong had peaked in the early '90s, would he have become "Lance Armstrong"? Impossible to say, but imo probably not, for either - they were both products of their respective times and circumstances, and most likely wouldn't have had the success they did if they'd been racing at other times. Or, to look at it from a different angle, Ullrich probably would've been a 4-5 time Tour winner if he hadn't had the misfortune of his career coinciding with Armstrong's. Which is to say, in so many instances it's as much luck and timing - beneficial or detrimental - as it is ability.

I think there are only a very select few over the history of the sport who would've "dominated" no matter what period they raced (and setting the doping question aside) - Merckx, obviously, but also Lemond, Hinault, a few others (and maybe, possibly Contador, although still a bit too early in his career to say for sure). Totally my opinion of course, but I wouldn't put either Indurain or Armstrong in that category.
Contador is quite a bit lot slower than Armstrong and his era. Take for example the Alpe Du Huez ascent at Dauphine 2010. Around 45 minutes for Contador. Lance , Pantani, Indurain, Ullrich..on drugs I guess, are sub 40, sub 39 minutes. The tought testing is slowing today's riders a bit
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
Contador is quite a bit lot slower than Armstrong and his era. Take for example the Alpe Du Huez ascent at Dauphine 2010. Around 45 minutes for Contador. Lance , Pantani, Indurain, Ullrich..on drugs I guess, are sub 40, sub 39 minutes. The tought testing is slowing today's riders a bit
Well you can't really compare the Dauphine to the Tour - I doubt AC was going flat-out, in tip-top form for the Dauphine. But there is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d'Huez#Fastest_Alpe_d.27Huez_ascents
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Polish said:
USPS was dominant because of Lance and Bruyneel.
And a Best-in-World Team.
Not too difficult to grasp really.

Gewiss failed.
Zero TdF wins.
Donkey Berzin wins one Giro.
Hee Haw.

How many Tour de France Contenders worked with Dr Ferrari?
A fair amount of DangerMan. Strong riders most all of them (not Berzin lol)
How many of them won the Tour de France?
Only One.
How many times did the only one win?
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven.

T-Mob and ONCE had world class doping programs, yes.
But they did not have Lance & Bruyneel & THE Team.

Really VeloCity, let it go.
It is time to move on.
Lance's cycling awesomeness is beyond proven.
A decision has already been reached. Trial over lol.
It has been appealed and proven again. And again.
The appeal process has been exhausted. Its over.
Accept the facts and move on

It is time to join RR and Dr M and mewmewkitty and the others in attacking Lance's personal life and his accountancy techniques and his witness tamponing instead.
What are the legal ramifications for tamponing a witness?
 
Suedehead said:
And of course, without the Festina-affair no Armstrong-years.:eek:
Don't forget Pantani being pulled from the 1999 Giro, right when he was at his absolute peak and crushing everyone. He was a juggernaut set to pull off a back-to-back Giro-Tour double. Sure, he was doped to the gills, but so was you know who.

Still waiting for someone to complain about the Saeco train in the Giro 2003-2004.
 
Nov 26, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Don't forget Pantani being pulled from the 1999 Giro, right when he was at his absolute peak and crushing everyone. He was a juggernaut set to pull off a back-to-back Giro-Tour double. Sure, he was doped to the gills, but so was you know who.

Still waiting for someone to complain about the Saeco train in the Giro 2003-2004.
Handy when the competition is missing. But would the little pirate with the anti-social personality disorder have the guts to go full program in France '99?

We demand a thread of its own, complete with demands of you-tube evidence.

Maybe you are more succesful;)
 
May 23, 2010
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Suedehead said:
Handy when the competition is missing. But would the little pirate with the anti-social personality disorder have the guts to go full program in France '99?

We demand a thread of its own, complete with demands of you-tube evidence.

Maybe you are more succesful;)
Pantani was absolutely crushed by the decision to eject him from the Giro. You could argue that it killed him.
To bring the thread back on topic, the pirate like el rey both became victims of complacent management due to sucess and both fell to more clever people.
Indurain was a very tempered passsion and Pantani very much a passionate passion but neither ever had the sort of teams Armstrong lead out.
That is very much more 1920's style
thanks
 
Exroadman24902 said:
Contador is quite a bit lot slower than Armstrong and his era. Take for example the Alpe Du Huez ascent at Dauphine 2010. Around 45 minutes for Contador. Lance , Pantani, Indurain, Ullrich..on drugs I guess, are sub 40, sub 39 minutes. The tought testing is slowing today's riders a bit
Did you just attempt to derail your own thread?
 
Jun 12, 2011
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Exroadman24902 said:
No buddy, you give up. Maybe also learn a little about the era you seek to argue about before posting on here
Take your own advice hey? Everyone else here disagrees with you-being a complete & utter jerk isn't helping you at all.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Captain_Cavman said:
A period of incarceration.
Beautiful!

I like the imagery of Tyler getting pelted with little wads of cotton, while being berated - "How much did they pay you?" WHACK "Cummon ya little weasle, how much?" WHACK...
 

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