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The battles we never got to see

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gregrowlerson

gregrowlerson

Aug 6, 2010
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aarnold517 said:
Speaking of the 06 tour, i wonder what would've happened if valverde didn't crash out on stage 3. i dare say it's not improbable to say valverde was stronger than sastre (given what we saw from valv in the vuelta a few months later and given that it was right in the middle of OP without him being caught) and sastre was probably the strongest in the mountains in 06. at the same time, pereiro would've been working for him instead of going for the win and it's very possible valverde could've been the caisse d'epargne tdf champion if not for the crash
Click to expand...

A healthy Kloden and Vino vs. the big 4 in the '07 TDF.

Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Mancebo vs. everyone else in '06.

Armstrong vs. Pantani and/or Ullrich in '99.

IMO Beloki would not have won the '03 TDF without the crash. Yes, he seemed stronger than ever, but he couldn't gain anything on Armstrong on Alp du'ez despite giving his all and Lance not on that great a day. Difficult to see him gaining any time in any of the mountains, let alone enough to make up for ITT losses. He probably would have gotten a 4th straight podium though, with Vino cracking on Luz Ardiden.
 
M

Mellow Velo

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gregrowlerson said:
A healthy Kloden and Vino vs. the big 4 in the '07 TDF.

Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Mancebo vs. everyone else in '06.

Armstrong vs. Pantani and/or Ullrich in '99.

IMO Beloki would not have won the '03 TDF without the crash. Yes, he seemed stronger than ever, but he couldn't gain anything on Armstrong on Alp du'ez despite giving his all and Lance not on that great a day. Difficult to see him gaining any time in any of the mountains, let alone enough to make up for ITT losses. He probably would have gotten a 4th straight podium though, with Vino cracking on Luz Ardiden.
Click to expand...

What ITT loses?
Armstrong ran empty in the heat at Cap Découverte and lost a pile of time to Ullrich. Stands to reason he would have lost a minute to Belokki, and probably have got it all back in the Nantes rain of stage 20.
Honours even, I'd say.
All comes down to the gains and loses in the Pyrenean stages: Aix Trois + Loudenvielle v Luz Ardiden.
Could have been a very, very close run thing.

Much talk of LA v Pantani in 1999, but I reckon 2000 would have been very interesting, too. (not that Mr P didn't rattle a cage or two, even given his "issues")
 
will10

will10

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gregrowlerson said:
A healthy Kloden and Vino vs. the big 4 in the '07 TDF.

Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Mancebo vs. everyone else in '06.

Armstrong vs. Pantani and/or Ullrich in '99.

IMO Beloki would not have won the '03 TDF without the crash. Yes, he seemed stronger than ever, but he couldn't gain anything on Armstrong on Alp du'ez despite giving his all and Lance not on that great a day. Difficult to see him gaining any time in any of the mountains, let alone enough to make up for ITT losses. He probably would have gotten a 4th straight podium though, with Vino cracking on Luz Ardiden.
Click to expand...

Beloki piled time into Ullrich on the Alpe (which is where Jan lost the Tour) and was 1'30 up before the TT stage. I don't think it's unrealistic to see Beloki outclimbing Ullrich (or at the very least staying with him) in the final mountain stages, losing time to Lance only on Luz. Could've been an awesome Tour.

What if Lance had been leading into that corner on the descent into Gap....;)
 
gregrowlerson

gregrowlerson

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Mellow Velo said:
What ITT loses?
Armstrong ran empty in the heat at Cap Découverte and lost a pile of time to Ullrich. Stands to reason he would have lost a minute to Belokki, and probably have got it all back in the Nantes rain of stage 20.
Honours even, I'd say.
All comes down to the gains and loses in the Pyrenean stages: Aix Trois + Loudenvielle v Luz Ardiden.
Could have been a very, very close run thing.

Much talk of LA v Pantani in 1999, but I reckon 2000 would have been very interesting, too. (not that Mr P didn't rattle a cage or two, even given his "issues")
Click to expand...

But people seem to ignore the fact that LA still finished 2nd in that middle ITT, so he hardly had a shocker. It was more that Jan was on fire that day. Given Joseba's average history against the clock I think there is a good chance that he still loses time to Lance on that stage. And he would have likely lost significant time in the flatter final ITT. LA was close to beating David Millar until he switched off after hearing of Ullrich's fall. When did Joseba ever finish remotely close to the big guns in an ITT?

I don't know his career that well though, so I don't mind being proven wrong if he was a better TT than I thought.
 
Angliru

Angliru

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Avoriaz said:
Hinault v Fignon 1983 Tour
Fignon v Hinault 1985 Tour
Delgado starting on time in 1989 Tour
VdB, Vino, Wiggins and the others who crashed out in 2011 v Evans
Click to expand...

This one especially for me. :(

Valverde whatever year he won on Courcheval before having to retire because of a bad knee. He was looking stronger than Basso who ended up on the podium in the end.
 
Angliru

Angliru

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will10 said:
Beloki piled time into Ullrich on the Alpe (which is where Jan lost the Tour) and was 1'30 up before the TT stage. I don't think it's unrealistic to see Beloki outclimbing Ullrich (or at the very least staying with him) in the final mountain stages, losing time to Lance only on Luz. Could've been an awesome Tour.

What if Lance had been leading into that corner on the descent into Gap....;)
Click to expand...

Beloki would've been with LA, Mayo and Ullrich when Armstrong rode too close to the fans on the side of the road and had his bars snatched out from under him. Maybe Beloki would've ignored Tyler's pleas to "wait for my lord and master" and attacked, setting off an entirely different chain of events. Maybe Mayo, mad that LA had carelessly taken him down, goes with Beloki and they work together to distance LA. Hey I can dream if I want to!:D
 
Bavarianrider

Bavarianrider

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roundabout said:
Ullrich won the TdS in 04 as well. Admittedly in a slightly less convincing fashion than 06 but he was pretty far from winning the Tour that year.

On the other hand I believe that the 06 Tour was TT-friendly and even for the 06 Basso a double would have been difficult.
Click to expand...

Hell comparing Ullrichs 04 shape with his 06 shape is pathetic. Ulle was waaaaaaaaaaaay stronger in 06. He would have murered everything.
Ulle wasn't all that good at the Suisse in 04, competition was just wack.
 
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the3verB

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aarnold517 said:
Speaking of the 06 tour, i wonder what would've happened if valverde didn't crash out on stage 3. i dare say it's not improbable to say valverde was stronger than sastre (given what we saw from valv in the vuelta a few months later and given that it was right in the middle of OP without him being caught) and sastre was probably the strongest in the mountains in 06. at the same time, pereiro would've been working for him instead of going for the win and it's very possible valverde could've been the caisse d'epargne tdf champion if not for the crash
Click to expand...


No Sastre was not the stongest in the mountains in 06. Floyd destroyed him in all mountains stages except la toussuire but we can t judge Landis level on this perfermance. I recently reviewed Alpe d huez 2006, i was shocked, Landis was training in the wheel of Kloden... and put a 38'34!! I think was just superior. I think Landis and Basso had the same level in the mountains in 2006.
 
gustienordic

gustienordic

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The best TDF GC riders:

LA vs. Jacques Anquetil vs. Bernard Hinault vs. Miguel Indurain vs. Eddy Merckx vs. Louison Bobet vs. Greg LeMond vs. Philippe Thys vs. Alberto Contador vs. Bartali vs. Coppi vs. Binda vs. Moser

and maybe Pantani thrown in :)

or the a sprint with:

Cavendish, Zabel, Cipo, McEwan (back when he was fast), Pettachi

or a KOM battle with:

Virenque, Bahamontes, Lucien Van Impe, Julio Jiménez, Felicien Vervaecke, Gino Bartali, Fausto Coppi, Charly Gaul, Imerio Massignan, Eddy Merckxk, Pantani,
 
airstream

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2006. Ivan Grozny, Ulle, furious Vino and sufferer Paco, who could improve considerably his TT by then. It's the only time I'm really sorry for and hopefully the last one.
 
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Mellow Velo

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gregrowlerson said:
But people seem to ignore the fact that LA still finished 2nd in that middle ITT, so he hardly had a shocker. It was more that Jan was on fire that day. Given Joseba's average history against the clock I think there is a good chance that he still loses time to Lance on that stage. And he would have likely lost significant time in the flatter final ITT. LA was close to beating David Millar until he switched off after hearing of Ullrich's fall. When did Joseba ever finish remotely close to the big guns in an ITT?

I don't know his career that well though, so I don't mind being proven wrong if he was a better TT than I thought.
Click to expand...

Heck, isn't this all about guesswork based upon Beloki's seemingly "best ever" form?
He was 1'30" down on LA, over 52 kms the year before in the mid race ITT. It's then a question of how to factor the heat.
Jan loves it. The other Spanish riders went really, really well, compared to the cold climate boys.
A few seconds here, plus assuming more on the first 2 mountain stages, when LA was in purgatory versus LA's obvious gains at Luz and Nantes.

I just said I thought it might have been close, not that JB would win.
If it wasn't likely to be close run, then why are folks worried that we didn't get to see the battle?
 
Avoriaz

Avoriaz

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gustienordic said:
The best TDF GC riders:

LA vs. Jacques Anquetil vs. Bernard Hinault vs. Miguel Indurain vs. Eddy Merckx vs. Louison Bobet vs. Greg LeMond vs. Philippe Thys vs. Alberto Contador vs. Bartali vs. Coppi vs. Binda vs. Moser,
Click to expand...

Moser?? TDF?

gustienordic said:
or the a sprint with:

Cavendish, Zabel, Cipo, McEwan (back when he was fast), Pettachi,
Click to expand...

Will you also throw in Darrigade, Maertens, Vanderaerden and Van Poppel?

gustienordic said:
or a KOM battle with:

Virenque, Bahamontes, Lucien Van Impe, Julio Jiménez, Felicien Vervaecke, Gino Bartali, Fausto Coppi, Charly Gaul, Imerio Massignan, Eddy Merckxk, Pantani,
Click to expand...

Not forgetting Lucho Herrera and the great KOM climber that was Christophe Rinero....;)
 
El Pistolero

El Pistolero

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Libertine Seguros said:
Igor Antón defending his lead in week 3 in 2010.
Asthma-Jet with a bit more youth facing the not-yet-fully-fledged-but-almost-there Cavendish in '08.

A non-crashed Gesink/Samu/Mosquera and a non-punctured Evans in the final mountain stage of the '09 Vuelta.
Click to expand...

No Marianne Vos vs Philippe Gilbert?
 
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