Teams & Riders The Big 6

[Barkintheeye]

This thread needs a poll to determine what should constitute the Big X group in cycling. The options appear to be

Big 6
Big 5 - Everyone except Vingegaard because he's a one-trick pony who doesn't do one-day races and looks like a beanpole
Big 5 - Everyone except WVA because he's a glorified Hincapiesque stage-hunting mountain dom who doesn't win the big races
Big 5 - Everyone except Roglic because of his age and he crashes too often
Big 5 - Everyone except MvdP because he's weak on longer climbs
Big 4 - Everyone except Vingegaard and MvdP because they're too 1-dimensional
Big 4 - Everyone except MvdP and WVA because they don't compete for GC
Big 4 - Everyone except Roglic and WVA because they haven't won a big race in the last two seasons
Big 3 - Pogacar, Evenepoel, and Roglic because they're Merckx/Hinault-like riders
Big 2 - Pogacar and Evenepoel because they remind us of Merckx
Big 1 - Pogacar because Evenepoel is not versatile enough

Definitely:
Big 5 - Everyone except Vingegaard because he's a one-trick pony who doesn't do one-day races and looks like a beanpole

 

[Riek s]

	One-day races	Grand Tours	Stage races
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	Pog	Pog	Pog
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	MvdP	Vingegaard	Rog
☆ ☆ ☆	Remco	Rog	Vingegaard
☆ ☆	WvA	Remco	Remco
☆	Rog	WvA	WvA
	Vingegaard	MvdP	MvdP

Pog won as many monuments as VDP though.
In stage races, i think Rog should be at the top? has a victory in almost all smaller stage races?
for GT: Rog should be before Vingegaard? more GT wins and 2nd in the tour as well. there is no reason to believe Rog is worse than vingegaard in GT based on last year tour alone.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I've looked through the forum, and I'm pretty sure everyone will agree that these are the correct scores:

Bunch sprinting

Small group sprinting

H2H sprinting

Rouleur

Cobbles

Cobbled climbs

Mountain climbing

One-day races

Stage races

Grand Tours

Raw power output

Versatility

Tactical perfectness/ wheelsucking

Family Values

Crash proneness

Fishiness

Voodooing

SoMe presence

Thick thighs

Gravel racing

Closest to/furthest from peak shape

Lack of freedom

Natural talent

Best overall

☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

WvA

Rog

MvdP

Remco

MvdP

Pog

Vingegaard

Pog

Rog

Vingegaard

MvdP

Pog

Rog

Vingegaard

Rog

Vingegaard

Nibali

Pog

Remco

Valverde

Remco and Rog

Landa

Froome

Masnada

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Hmmm, the biggest one day race of the year is the World Championships RR. Only on of the Big 5 has done this.

 

[Volderke]

You can say what you want, but WvA has crushed the whole peloton several times in the last 3 TdF he rode.
There are only a few riders in the peloton where everyone is genuinely scared off, as they have shown pure dominance. The best examples were set by Pogacar, WvA, MvdP and Evenepoel.
Vingegaard rode a very good TdF where he excelled both in the mountains and in the TT, but 20-30% of his tour win was due to WvA.
Roglic is a formidable rider, but he isn't the kind of dominant / attacking force like Evenepoel and he doesn't dare to go for long raids.

Some of the most dominant rides of the last few years I can remember (not necessarily won, but still dominant) were:
WvA: Olympics in Tokyo where he was a beast everyone was afraid of. Actually, it was vintage WvA: being the best, showing he was the best, and riding too much at the front of the group trying to control everything (in other words: tactically a bit inept, but oh so strong), tour stages to e.g. Longwy and Calais, but especially Hautacam in 2022, Malaucene in 2021 (he was actually less dominant in this Tour but made progression throughout), and about any stage in 2020 where he singlehandedly decided who was allowed to go in the break and who not, controlling the peloton for ages uphill or downhill.
Pogacar: His rides in the RVV 2022 and 2023 were completely smashing each and everyone, except for MvdP in 2022 when Pogacar hadn't yet fine-tuned his tactics. His Tirreno 2020 where he crushed WvA who was in fine form but 10kgs more heavy;
Evenepoel: His LBL wins, WC, first week in the Vuelta. It's a sad thing his competitors were either absent / crashing / sleeping, but he crushed the field that was there and while he's maybe still a 'lesser' rider in terms of palmares compared to e.g. Pogacar, there aren't 2-3 riders in the peloton with his skillset.
MvdP: While MvdP doesn't use long-range attacks that often, he is very deadly once he puts all his energy in one efficient attack, e.g. Strade 2021, MSR 2023. But e.g. in both his RVV wins, MvdP wasn't necessarily the best rider (beating WvA who miss-timed his sprint, and beating Pogacar after he barely held on the last Paterberg). MvdP his Roubaix rides were fine but not crushing, and his best Roubaix race was probably the one won by Colbrelli.

In other words, WvA / Pogacar and (to a lesser extend as still not enough reference material when racing with his peers) Evenepoel are riders that can crush a peloton with endless energy. MvdP can crush any rider with a one-minute attack and is in general a though nut to crack and has all the necessary skills to win all spring classics.
Vingegaard is probably best suited atm for winning any grand tour as he has the race physionomy that allows him to excel in the high mountains (more of a natural climber than Pogacar) and still do one of the best TT of any rider, but he ofcourse benefits enormeously from having riders like WvA in his team. Roglic is still a very though rider that can dominate 1-week races, but I see him as showing weaknesses in a 3-week battle (but so does Evenepoel). But both Vingegaard and Roglic have nothing Merckxian in terms of their ability to crush the peloton with long range attacks / solos / controlling other strong riders in tactical though races.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In regards to versatility debates based on their careers so far.

I consider Roglič, Pogačar and van Aert as proven versatile riders.

Evenepoel, Vingegaard and van der Poel not so much. That is for me to consider them as versatile riders. They still have some proving left to do.

 

[KZD]

	One-day races	Grand Tours	Stage races
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	Pog	Pog	Pog
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	MvdP	Vingegaard	Rog
☆ ☆ ☆	Remco	Rog	Vingegaard
☆ ☆	WvA	Remco	Remco
☆	Rog	WvA	WvA
	Vingegaard	MvdP	MvdP

I think these kind of rankings are more accurate to be done at the end of season when all riders finish riding the races they have planned to.

I also think Remco should be ahead of Vingegård in the stage races ranking as he won more of those than the Dane.

I also agree with those that say that the one-day races should be worth more as their number is higher and they are more prestigious overall than non-GT stage races.

 

[houtdffan]

	One-day races	Grand Tours	Stage races
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	Pog	Pog	Pog
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	MvdP	Vingegaard	Rog
☆ ☆ ☆	Remco	Rog	Vingegaard
☆ ☆	WvA	Remco	Remco
☆	Rog	WvA	WvA
	Vingegaard	MvdP	MvdP

Remco as a 2 star in GT and stage races and only 3 stars in 1 day races

Do you actually watch cycling?

This Remco Derangement Syndrome is getting out of hand

 

[Blanco]

Seemingly not enough reason to convince some people that Wout belong to this list.

How about him gifting The Greatest a classic win? Something that any of the other 5 - except maybe Rog - can only dream of. Check mate.

Yes, it was a very nice gesture, but not the smartest thing to do, especially how things went. He gave away what would be his biggest win in this season so far.

 

[BigCoward]

Remco as a 2 star in GT and stage races and only 3 stars in 1 day races

Do you actually watch cycling?

This Remco Derangement Syndrome is getting out of hand

Depends if you assess where he is now, or historically.
He has weaker palmares than the people above him in the categories judged, though will finish above some of them by the end of his career.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It was the right thing to gift Laporte. If van Aert would now cry about that. Then he would really not belong in top 6. Consider it as investment.

 

[OlavEH]

General equality leads to stunningly boring racing. But give me two superb racers who only know winning and we have the possibility of an historic race!

Nah, boring or not. If you are not an explicit fan of either Remco or Pog, it is not very interesting to see one of this winning by a huge margin in most races. If there is a big duel, it's of course something completely different. But in 2022 and 2023 it's really only in TDF 2022 where we have seen a big duel between two of Pog, Remco and Vingegaard in a stage race or big one day race. We certainly need more of these.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If one star would be one point, the score would be:

Pog - 15
Rog - 8
Vingegaard & Remco - 7
MVDP & WVA - 4

Maybe the points should be weighted.

One-day races: 25 - 18 - 13 - 7 - 3 - 1
GT - 20 - 17 - 13 - 7 - 3 - 1
Stage races - 15 - 13 - 10 - 7 - 3 - 1 - I just quickly wrote the points as I feel them, there is no great science behind it or much thought.

Pog - 60
Ving - 27
Rog - 27
Remco - 19
MvdP - 18
WvA - 9

It's interesting indeed. On how seemingly objective analysis always tend to push Rogla a bit higher.

 

[DoYouEvenRideBruh]

Maybe the points should be weighted.

One-day races: 25 - 18 - 13 - 7 - 3 - 1
GT - 20 - 17 - 13 - 7 - 3 - 1
Stage races - 15 - 13 - 10 - 7 - 3 - 1 - I just quickly wrote the points as I feel them, there is no great science behind it or much thought.

Pog - 60
Ving - 27
Rog - 27
Remco - 19
MvdP - 18
WvA - 9

This makes Pog around 6.66 times better than WVA. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[houtdffan]

Depends if you assess where he is now, or historically.
He has weaker palmares than the people above him in the categories judged, though will finish above some of them by the end of his career.

He's at most only 1 star below Pog in 1 day races. Pog has 4 monuments whereas Remco has 2 plus a worlds. They both have lessor 1 day pro tour wins as well

 

[BigCoward]

He's at most only 1 star below Pog in 1 day races. Pog has 4 monuments whereas Remco has 2 plus a worlds. They both have lessor 1 day pro tour wins as well

Pog and MVDP both have 4 big wins. He has 3. If only one person can be at each level he is in the correct place currently based on his previous results.

 

[Aimar16]

Pog won as many monuments as VDP though.
In stage races, i think Rog should be at the top? has a victory in almost all smaller stage races?
for GT: Rog should be before Vingegaard? more GT wins and 2nd in the tour as well. there is no reason to believe Rog is worse than vingegaard in GT based on last year tour alone.

Yeah, it's a rather subjective ranking. But I think Pog deserves to be ahead of MvdP. He has a big edge over MvdP on three Monuments.
If I had to rank the winning percentages against each other -
Lombardia: 100% Pog - 0% MvdP
LBL: 100% Pog - 0% MvdP
RvV: 75% Pog - 25% MvdP
PR: 100% MvdP - 0% Pog
MSR: 80% MvdP - 20% Pog

Of course, Rog has an impressive palmarès, and the only Stage race they both raced in was won by Rog. But still, if they had raced against each other more I think Pog would have been ahead of Rog than not. Also, I consider Vingegaard to be a stronger GT rider than Rog at the moment.

 

[dercuforever]

I don't see how Van Aert can be included as he doesn't win the big races. Pidders' classic season is on a par with him but he's not big 6.
Would we have included Sam Bennet in the big six in 2020 for winning green?

Well he was as strong as VDP on Roubaix, if not stronger (almost hold VDP for 400m of cobbles while having a flat).
He won E3, while not the strongest, but played it smart.
He took the wind for VDP in the Poggio, and brought him back onto Ganna/Pog wheel. Not certain VDP could have attack if not for that help.
He lost CX because VDP was smarter (once again).
In fact, if you remove VDP, WVA win Roubaix and most likely MSR.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I see 1 or maybe 2 poster saying he doesn't belong and it should be only 5?

As a perennial advocate of there being a Big 4 in tennis, it should clearly be a group of 6 guys as the grouping is based on dominance over the rest of the field more so than dominance over each other.

What confuses me in this discussion is how much versatility credit Van Aert and especially Van der Poel get when they don't race GCs. For versatility it's clearly Pogacar and Evenepoel ahead of the rest and even Roglic is both a monument and GT winner even if he hasn't won a monument in a hot minute. Van der Poels coverage especially is quite narrow, it just happens to cover 3 monuments and a lot of WC routes but that's still not huge width.

Spoiler

And no I don't compare Van Aert to Andy Murray to belittle him. I am a decade long Andy Murray fan. How else could I be so dour all the time.

tbh VDP's TT is a bit underrated at this point. If he truly goes for it in top form he's usually in the top 5 nowadays. Other than that yes, he's less versatile, not that it matters

 

[Riek s]

Yeah, it's a rather subjective ranking. But I think Pog deserves to be ahead of MvdP. He has a big edge over MvdP on three Monuments.
If I had to rank the winning percentages against each other -
Lombardia: 100% Pog - 0% MvdP
LBL: 100% Pog - 0% MvdP
RvV: 75% Pog - 25% MvdP
PR: 100% MvdP - 0% Pog
MSR: 80% MvdP - 20% Pog

I don't think you can do the above, since you give more credits to Pog for RVV, when VDP won it twice etc.

But i agree, Pog can be put ahead one day races (only looking at monuments):
Pog ridden 11 won 4
VDP ridden 14 won 4
Remco ridden 4 won 2
Rog ridden 8 won 1
WVA ridden 16 won 1
Vingegaard ridden 6 won 0

On monuments Rog has a higher win rate than WVA (podium not taking into account)
Remco has the highest successrate, but the lowest participation rate of all the 'top6' (including vingegaard!)

 

[Didinho]

Well he was as strong as VDP on Roubaix, if not stronger (almost hold VDP for 400m of cobbles while having a flat).
He won E3, while not the strongest, but played it smart.
He took the wind for VDP in the Poggio, and brought him back onto Ganna/Pog wheel. Not certain VDP could have attack if not for that help.
He lost CX because VDP was smarter (once again).
In fact, if you remove VDP, WVA win Roubaix and most likely MSR.

Everybody still thinking that Mathieu wouldn't bridge to Pogi and Ganna on the Poggio if Wout wasn't there. He closed a gap himself early when they started pushing and Wout had Cosnefroy who did the same thing for him. If you see his winning attack, he had still more left than the others, so he would always bridge to the front, even if Wout wasn't there. So if Cosnefroy didn't brought Wout back in the beginning he wouldn't be top 10 with that logic.

And the CX Worlds he was just stronger, as Wout himself said afterwards. If you try to hang on to his wheel the whole race you also don't try a long sprint, because you know you're not fresher. And yeah a little bit smarter also that day in the final.


For me these 6 (and even Pidcock, maybe Julian in WC later) are just the strongest when they are alone on the startlist. Put some together and you have a good fight on their terrain. These are guys who everybody is afraid of when they start. Comparing mountain or sprint abilities is unnecesary for me.

 

[dercuforever]

I don't know if there is a part of the forum where we can talk PCM stats, but here is my view of the big 6 (with the new stats medium mountain) + 2 bonus riders in order to check how mere human are ranked :

	Flat	Hill	Medium Mountain	High Mountain	TT	Cobbles	Resistance (capacity to hold effort or do several attacks)	Stamina (for long races)	Acceleration	Recovery
Pogacar	75	80	83	81	77	79	83	80	79	82
Evenepoel	81	80	82	80	82	??	80	82	76	79
Vingegaard	73	79	82	83	78	??	80	78	77	82
Roglic	77	81	81	81	80	??	79	79	79	80
VDP	78	81	74	69	74	81	82	81	82	70
WVA	80	79	78	76	81	81	79	79	81	82
Landa (bonus GC)	71	79	79	80	68	??	75	80	71	80
Laporte	75	78	??	??	??	79	77	79	77	??

 

[Didinho]

I don't know if there is a part of the forum where we can talk PCM stats, but here is my view of the big 6 (with the new stats medium mountain) + 2 bonus riders in order to check how mere human are ranked :

	Flat	Hill	Medium Mountain	High Mountain	TT	Cobbles	Resistance (capacity to hold effort or do several attacks)	Stamina (for long races)	Acceleration	Recovery
Pogacar	75	80	83	81	77	79	83	80	79	82
Evenepoel	81	80	82	80	82	??	80	82	76	79
Vingegaard	73	79	82	83	78	??	80	78	77	82
Roglic	77	81	81	81	80	??	79	79	79	80
VDP	78	81	74	69	74	81	82	81	82	70
WVA	80	79	78	76	81	81	79	79	81	82
Landa (bonus GC)	71	79	79	80	68	??	75	80	71	80
Laporte	75	78	??	??	??	79	77	79	77	??

Is there a medium mountain stat now? Haven't played for years. With these new impressive riders I would love to buy it again.

 

[topcat]

I don't know what this is all about. Remco hasn't even got going yet. When he does, he will smoke all these dudes. Pog is a fairly good all-rounder. So, we'll say big 2 for now.

 

[Valanga]

	One-day races	Grand Tours	Stage races
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	Pog	Pog	Pog
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆	MvdP	Vingegaard	Rog
☆ ☆ ☆	Remco	Rog	Vingegaard
☆ ☆	WvA	Remco	Remco
☆	Rog	WvA	WvA
	Vingegaard	MvdP	MvdP

This list makes no sense to me.

The Big 6 is all about their strength now, not about the palmares they have ridden in the last decade or so.

How can you put Pog ahead of Vingegaard in GT's? If I recall correctly, Vingegaard gave Pog a nice beating in the last TdF.
Based on what do you put Rog ahead of Remco for GT's? The former hasn't finished a GT in over a year and was behind in the last GT on the latter before he crashed out. They could be on par, at best.
As for one day races, Remco just won LBL and the Worlds, about the most important 1 day races there are (sure LBL can be discussed, but definitely up there) in a way we haven't seen in a long time. Meanwhile MvdP got a beating in what is supposed to be the one-day race that suits him best.