The Climb (Froome's first autobiography)

[JimmyFingers]

You are completely right, he has said he's clean in the past. He's also been a massive hypocrite in the past ( for example by calling for life bans). But not to anywhere near the extent that Team Sky and Froome have.

The hypocrisy is this place can be staggering. Too many people simply yelling about the riders they don't like, and giving a free pass to those who ride with panache or ones that have shown a 'consistent' development. I suppose at least LaFlo is open about that, although it can't be justified, just admitted.

 

[LaFlorecita]

The hypocrisy is this place can be staggering. Too many people simply yelling about the riders they don't like, and giving a free pass to those who ride with panache or ones that have shown a 'consistent' development. I suppose at least LaFlo is open about that, although it can't be justified, just admitted.

What exactly is so mind blowing about that part of my post?

You don't think team Sky are much more vocal about being clean?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Every rider, every team makes claims of cleaniless to the media. To single one out as being more hypocritical than others is absurd. It is a partisan viewpoint don't attempt to dress as objective, or reasoned.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Every rider, every team makes claims of cleaniless to the media. To single one out as being more hypocritical than others is absurd. It is a partisan viewpoint don't attempt to dress as objective, or reasoned.

You don't think there are different levels of hypocrisy?

Sky is one of the most vocal teams yet don't live up to their claims in terms of transparency and actions. Other teams might act the same but are not as vocal. It's that simple.

 

[Siriuscat]

You don't look in for 24hrs and the whole thing explodes...ahh the Clinic more comedy value than the rest of the interwebnet thingy!!

Vickers, I think you are way out of line ripping people apart because of their views instead of attacking and debating the content of the post we are all allowed opinions it's what democracy is; as Hitch comments are we responsible for F1 crashes too??

The line of arguement is pretty simple to me, either watch cycling "warts an all" or feck off and watch footballists or some other pointless sport. Do they all dope, very probably, theres been doping in cycling since the riders first realised it could make them go quicker or hang on longer. Does doping matter to me, yes it does but it won't stop me watching the sport I love or supporting the riders that make the sport what it is.

Too many times ion the clinic I wonder whether it's inhabited by cycling fans or by folk with other agendas.... amazing what Froomes comic book gets folk into....

 

[red_flanders]

To single one out as being more hypocritical than others is absurd. It is a partisan viewpoint don't attempt to dress as objective, or reasoned.

That is complete nonsense, unsupported by facts, creating a false equivalency to justify personal preference.

There is one team that has made it's very brand about transparency, cleanliness and doing it right. The others have not. They have responded when queried or attacked. Sky has made cleanliness and their superiority to others via special knowledge their very raison d'etre.

The premise of your post is utterly false.

 

[JimmyFingers]

That is complete nonsense, unsupported by facts, creating a false equivalency to justify personal preference.

There is one team that has made it's very brand about transparency, cleanliness and doing it right. The others have not. They have responded when queried or attacked. Sky has made cleanliness and their superiority to others via special knowledge their very raison d'etre.

The premise of your post is utterly false.

Weird thing is, I can say the very same thing back to you, in my opinion, as was yours, but not cited as such, typically bombastically dressed up as fact. Do the members of the MPCC not claim cleanliness and transparency?

Personal preference? Don't make me laugh, as your post unequivocally displays your agenda.

 

[BYOP88]

So does Wiggins have(retrospective)blood on his hands, because he is a fan of Tom Simpson who died?

 

[Digger]

So does Wiggins have(retrospective)blood on his hands, because he is a fan of Tom Simpson who died?

Good point - Millar has blood on his hands because of Lance, Contador and Vino.

Wiggins has blood on his hands because of Contador and lance.

Talansky has blood on his hands because of lance.

Nicolas Roche has blood on his hands because of basically everyone.


Walsh has blood on his hands because of Sky.


I want to know why Martin is so quick to tell us this in here, and doesn't say it to some of his buddies on twitter, who are big sky fans...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Anyway, going off topic a bit and leaving the book aside, you are the one who keeps complaining about how "unfair" we all are for supporting Contador and hating on Froome.

I'll start hating Contador whenever he starts casting doubts and ****ing on others and adopts a "holier than thou" attitude and shows himself to be a disgusting hypocrite.

But you want to make this much worse than it actually is. People supporting dopers make them dope. People supporting dopers might contribute to their death. Disgusting.

Here's the truth of why MV started his whole BS about blood: he can not stand the fact people appreciate Contador, but dislike his beloved Sky.

And the truth of why people do dislike Sky and appreciate Contador.

 

[Benotti69]

Froome and the TUE, like most things is this sport and doping, we have been here before........

Spit in the soup @Spitinthesoup · Jun 15
Rasmussen in his book, where he claims that the UCI covered up suspect values during the 2005 Tour de France:

“Doctor Leinders and doctor Mario Zorzoli, the head of the UCI's Medical Department, had a meeting where they ...

....talked the matter over. When it was over, I was allowed to ride on. No cause for alarm”

“Rabobank had a good relationship with the UCI; We had figured it out amicably ”

That Cookson still employs Dr Zorzoli shows just how cleanER cycling is.

 

[Beech Mtn]

So does Wiggins have(retrospective)blood on his hands, because he is a fan of Tom Simpson who died?

How much blood do Froome, Wiggins, Sky have on their hands for ramping up the arms race when the sport was looking a bit cleanER post-USADA/Floyd/Lance?

If Alberto has a medical incident because he had to ramp up his doping this year to keep up with the grupetto donkeys who now rule the sport, does that mean Froome is more to blame than the Contador fans?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Txema Gonzalez.

 

[gooner]

How much blood do Froome, Wiggins, Sky have on their hands for ramping up the arms race when the sport was looking a bit cleanER post-USADA/Floyd/Lance?

If Alberto has a medical incident because he had to ramp up his doping this year to keep up with the grupetto donkeys who now rule the sport, does that mean Froome is more to blame than the Contador fans?

Absurd logic to rationalise one's wrongdoing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Absurd logic to rationalise one's wrongdoing.

But fans cheering you on isn't? jfc.

 

[peloton]

Every rider, every team makes claims of cleaniless to the media. To single one out as being more hypocritical than others is absurd. It is a partisan viewpoint don't attempt to dress as objective, or reasoned.

Incorrect.

Most teams and riders do indeed claim they are clean.
But no other team other than SKY has claimed 'full transparency, 'ZTP', 'marginal gains' which makes it even more absurd when they have a rider who has had a transformation never seen before, yet refuses to disclose his pre transformation numbers, not even to specialists like Ashenden.

Speaks volumes.

 

[del1962]

So does Wiggins have(retrospective)blood on his hands, because he is a fan of Tom Simpson who died?

I know most of the guys in the clinic like hating on Brad for anything, but be very difficult to put some evedinece on him being responsible for Tommy's death, as he wasn't even conceived at the time

 

[BYOP88]

I know most of the guys in the clinic like hating on Brad for anything, but be very difficult to put some evedinece on him being responsible for Tommy's death, as he wasn't even conceived at the time

Del, this may come as a shock but I don't hate Wiggins, not a fan but I don't hate him.

The point I was making is when Martin says 'if you root for a rider and he dopes then dies, the blood is on your hands' which is complete and utter nonsense.

 

[martinvickers]

Some consistency indeed, consistency that is sorely lacking in your position. Why haven't you given up following the sport? Following the sport creates incentives to dope, leading to blood on your hands.

A ridiculous position. Doping is a choice. It's not the automatic default position across sport, no matter how common it got in certain sports at certain times. Following the sport on its own is no such incentive. A ludicrously reductionist charade of an argument.

 

[msjett]

Whoa....this thread went way off on a tangent while I was asleep....gone is the fun and witty banter about how terrible the book is and how inconsistent the stories are from Froome and co.

Shame really it was a brilliant thread and the source of many of my lols and smiles.

 

[martinvickers]

D1ck Cheney would be proud of such rhetoric

Goodness, Hog, have you not worked out how to type Dick in non-phallic context?

 

[msjett]

A ridiculous position. Doping is a choice. It's not the automatic default position across sport, no matter how common it got in certain sports at certain times. Following the sport on its own is no such incentive. A ludicrously reductionist charade of an argument.

Dude....take a pill and chill out.

 

[martinvickers]

I'm not insulted. I think asking ourselves if we have some part to play is a reasonable question, which you put forward by giving your view. But I also think it's an un-tenable stance, resulting from a dirty sport where we all must rationalize something in order to watch and enjoy it. Worth noting that you choose not the answer the questions in the scenario above.

Who did you root for in the Vuelta?

Roche, reluctantly. But in honest to god truth, I derive little joy from the Vuelta generally, I barely follow it, and that was the case, before you ask, when sky 2-3ed it too. It's not entirely logical, but Puerto continues to leave a bad taste in the mouth. Or in short, I think the french authorities take doping somewhat seriously, and the italians appear to be moving in that direction. I'm not very optimistic yet about spanish authorities.

Who is clean? Both un-answerable if rooting for dopers puts blood on one's hands. We either all have some or we don't.

The key is knowingly. I said, right at the start, that in our sport, it's hard, but you do your best. And if a rider lets you down, it's his fault, not yours. That last bit is important. There's no duty of clairvoyance.

I remember back in the day when the rabid Armstrong defenders attacked Pantani as a doper, day after day. I also made critical comments of him, though I had by Hautacam in 2000 had my eyes wide open WRT Armstrong and criticized him as well. But when Pantani died I did wonder if all the noise we create on these boards has some part to play. Probably self-centered melodrama but I understand the same question coming up now.

The real problem is that the arguments herein are the proverbial re-arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic. It's a polluted environment where no one can be close to it and retain any kind of pure ethical stance. It's inevitable that some will fool themselves into feeling they can, but the arguments never stand up.

Obviously that view depends on assuming practically everyone dopes, and that's fair so far as it goes. I don't presume that, not any more. Doesn't mean I'm blind to the problems that remain. But in absolute honest, cycling was frankly second only to Pro ****ing wrestling when it came to drugs a few years back. Do you think it's worse than athletics now? I don't. I think IAAF are headed for a train wreck.

 

[martinvickers]

Oh Martin. I'm mocking Froome's book. You think that book is serious? I hope not.

It's a ghosted sports celeb autobio - seriousness never entered the equation. I have set out several times my views on Froome, which are not exactly supportive. That's not the point.

Anyway, going off topic a bit and leaving the book aside, you are the one who keeps complaining about how "unfair" we all are for supporting Contador and hating on Froome.

I'll start hating Contador whenever he starts casting doubts and ****ing on others and adopts a "holier than thou" attitude and shows himself to be a disgusting hypocrite.

Well, let's accept your view as fact for the moment. Since when is hypocrisy going to kill anyone, or physically destroy someone? Doping does. If it's a choice of being rid of hypocrisy or rid of doping, guess what? I'm going for doping.

But you want to make this much worse than it actually is. People supporting dopers make them dope. People supporting dopers might contribute to their death. Disgusting.

Nobody 'makes' a doper dope but the doper. It's not about 'making' someone dope, its about increasing the reason to, being an accessory.

Cry me a river about fairness and all that. YOU made that entire discussion irrelevant by coming up with some *** analogy and blowing everything out of proportion.

I know one thing, and that is that Contador couldn't give two ****s what some random person on the internet thinks about him. How the hell would my support encourage him to dope and risk his life.

You alone? Doubtful, in isolation. But his team is paid for by sponsors. and those sponsors care what fans think. And if many or most of Berti's fans feel like you do, and couldn't care less if he dopes, and will stick by him whatever, then his sponsors will most likely follow suit, and the message goes up the chain.

 

[martinvickers]

Why doesn't Martin tell Walsh he has blood on his hands?

Why would he?