- Jun 2, 2010
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Rouetheday said:Geez, personal, what do you have against socialist English folksingers?![]()
Nothing personal.
I don't like him, but that is not the point.
Rouetheday said:Geez, personal, what do you have against socialist English folksingers?![]()
personal said:No, you didn't. But, seriously, what's the point of even mentioning football clubs on the bicycling forum?
personal said:You're right about everything except about who brought destruction to Yugoslavia and its peoples. It's Milosevic and serbian nationalism.
You are forgetting that he started whole thing years before other republics of Yu even had non-communist goverments.
Soldiers with red stars on the caps were killing my and other peoples in the 1990-ties same as in 1940-ties so I disike the thing for a good reason. Even though I am aware of the fact that many lived decently during communist years.
And nostalgia is mostly thing of longing for ones youth. When you are 60 you will remember your 20-ties fondly even if you then worked in the coal mine.
But, we are seriously digressing. Maybe mods should move this tread to Cafe?
Mrs John Murphy said:There were atrocities carried out by all sides during the wars and all sides also have responsibility for what happened. You can not absolve the actions of Tudjman etc, or any of the post-Tito political leaders for their actions. All the leaders whipped up nationalist sentiment in order to shore up their positions in the 1980s and 1990s.
Mrs John Murphy said:As for nostalgia. It isn't just about age or class, lots of people for lots of reasons remember the past fondly for different reasons. A few weeks back I was on a train and the guy sat opposite me got talking to me. Midway through the journey some girls came up begging (they were maybe 7 and 10) and they had a note explaining that their parents were dead. The guy gave them some money and said to me 'this would never have happened under communism'. For him the loss of the system was about the amount of social protection people got and the things that were provided for.
Was he nostalgic for the shortages of the 1980s or the brutality of the 1950s? I doubt it very much. But he didn't see a society where children are begging on trains as a much of an improvement on the system that went before.
Likewise, my friends some of whom were victims of the Yugoslav conflicts see the peace of the Tito-era as a far better time that what followed.
slim charles said:whereas mentioning communism on cycling forums has a lot more sense?
Mrs John Murphy said:If anyone is being patronising it is you. You are the one who assumes that where I come from and what my background is.
You think that some how you have a monopoly on suffering and victimhood and that no one else can understand or know.
The reality is that you weren't gang-raped, nor were you forced to be a refugee, you didn't watch your family being shot. So don't lecture me about not knowing because I know only too well what happened so pointed headed nationalists can wax romantic about their 'freedom'.
oldborn said:So why do not tell us where you come from?
If you were raped or your friends did, you are Muslim from Bosnia, cos only Serbs raped Muslim womans.
So where are you come from?
I suggest taking some therapist, it can really help you out
About nationalists if that mean that I love my country and will fight, oh yes I am and proud of it
Maybe Human watch rights can help you out![]()
slim charles said:@personal
I'm really not going to get into 'who's more to blame for war'. but i will say this - nothing is ever that simple, nothing is black and white.
About communism nostalgia - I don't think people are nostalgic because they love communism very much. They are nostalgic because after communism came war [in which lot of people, from all ex-Yugoslavia republics died] and economic crisis [current one is nothing compared to what we had in 90's]. To say that nostalgia for communism is just about people remembering their youth is quite cynical and even tasteless.
oldborn said:Well that was high school 3rd grade lecture, i sucks in Marxism cos it is "ideology of envy". Do you know why we had not real communism? Cos communist always found someone to eliminate on and on.
Libertine Seguros said:Well, not really, because we haven't really had proper "Communists" either. Marxist theory was predicated on waiting until "Capitalism" reached its logical conclusion and could sustain itself no longer. The previous stages in Marx's historical timeline lasted hundreds, thousands of years. But no modern "Communists" were willing to wait that long. They wanted to effect communism in countries that Marx would never have considered ready for it. Hence why Lenin had to write his own doctrine for how to impose Communism from above (and why his New Economic Policy saw a return to a level of controlled Capitalism under Bolshevik rule). By the time we get to Stalin, it's almost an afterthought, a mere justification for autocratic rule. Stalin's idea of "Socialism In One Country", for example, runs completely antithetical to anything Marx wrote.
A lot of the so-called Communists were opportunists willing to pay lip service to an ideology that wasn't practical at the time in order to manoeuvre themselves into some more power.
We have never had "real Communism" because even if we assume that Marx was 100% correct, we've never reached the point in time at which the Capitalist state of development is at its logical conclusion around the world.
But they all have one thing in common - not one of them has occurred in a country that Marx would have considered ready for it. Or even close.oldborn said:Although we can discuss about different communists regime in Cuba, Cambodia, China etc, they all have something specific for that region.
Libertine Seguros said:But they all have one thing in common - not one of them has occurred in a country that Marx would have considered ready for it. Or even close.
Marx's theory was based on 4 distinct phases of human development: Asiatic, Feudal, Capitalist and Socialist. Only when one reaches it's logical conclusion can we move onto the next. Most of the places that have attempted to effect Communism have not fully entrenched Capitalism. Hell, some of them had barely overthrown Feudalism.
Of course, here in the U.S. there seems to be a cynical anti-intellectualism among the far right wing. (Dear God, please don't let Scott SoCal find this thread.oldborn said:One thing allways fascinated me about reds.
In Cambodia Khmer Rouge s revolution is only one who started in villages and moved in urban area.
So brilliant reds hated mostly (although they did not spare ammo on their others opponents) educated people and everything related with them.
One day they said ; "what the hell we do not need money", other day they said; "what hell from now on, people will cross steets on red light only, not green, red"
We do not had such idiots but we had idiots who organized those open festival birthday for our lovely leader, delirium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO1EBh5g8Ww&feature=related
Mrs John Murphy said:To argue about numbers is to miss the point. An atrocity is an atrocity, whether it is in the thousands or the hundreds, or the tens. A victim is a victim irrespective of their nationality. There were war criminals on all sides.
People also suffered under the Ustaše, the Chetniks, IMRO, the Royal dictatorship etc etc, so lets not think that Yugoslavia was a land of milk and honey before or after.
The point is that it is it is your opinion that the Communist regime was the worst thing, it is your opinion that the Serbs are to blame, just as it is the opinion of my friends who were victims that things were better before, just as it was the opinion of that guy on the train that things are worse now than before.
slim charles said:@personal
I'm really not going to get into 'who's more to blame for war'. but i will say this - nothing is ever that simple, nothing is black and white.
About communism nostalgia - I don't think people are nostalgic because they love communism very much. They are nostalgic because after communism came war [in which lot of people, from all ex-Yugoslavia republics died] and economic crisis [current one is nothing compared to what we had in 90's]. To say that nostalgia for communism is just about people remembering their youth is quite cynical and even tasteless.
Alpe d'Huez said:Very interesting thread. Let's keep our cool though people, not need to harp too much on each other.
I'm old enough to remember the Cold War and studied it quite a bit, visiting the former Soviet Union in 1999 after it opened up.
What has always fascinated me most though was Marxist or simply leftist influence in Latin America, especially in the 70's and 80's. Both the corruption within it, and the hard line and swift actions by the US against it, regardless of the consequences in many instances.
Rouetheday said:Of course, here in the U.S. there seems to be a cynical anti-intellectualism among the far right wing. (Dear God, please don't let Scott SoCal find this thread.)