The Froome Files, test data only thread

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Jul 28, 2011
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Re: Re:

Alex Simmons/RST said:
V3R1T4S said:
Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.
Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.
Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]
 
Re: Re:

V3R1T4S said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
V3R1T4S said:
Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.
Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.
Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]
It was just a simple request, even for a pub chat. There would be no tit for tat if some basic etiquette of posting the source link along with a quote was done in the first place. I don't see why readers should be expected to verify every random tidbit thrown out there.
 
Jul 28, 2011
135
0
8,830
Re: Re:

Alex Simmons/RST said:
V3R1T4S said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
V3R1T4S said:
Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.
Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.
Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]
It was just a simple request, even for a pub chat. There would be no tit for tat if some basic etiquette of posting the source link along with a quote was done in the first place. I don't see why readers should be expected to verify every random tidbit thrown out there.
That's fair and something I can get behind.

To hopefully contribute to the discussion: In "The Secret Race" TH talks a lot about EPO & HR and also the drop in hematocrit over a three-week race. Far from a peer-reviewed article, I agree, but more credible than the internet. On page 60 he talks about the general rule of thumb of ~2 points HcT drop per week. On page 106 he details how a regimen of EPO lowered his Madone time and shifted his max heart rate from 177 to 191. Later in the book (I can not find it but my memory recalls) him talking about either EPO or BBs and being able to push through your limits even though you think you are at them. He talks a little about it on page 129 but I believe there is a more detailed discussion elsewhere.

It would also make sense physiologically since the heart is a muscle so the more oxygenation it has the higher its maximum is and the less it has to work at submaximal levels to provide the same oxygenation to other working muscles -- the exact opposite of going to altitude, for example. This is also consistent with hyperoxic training/supplemental O2 use.

But back to the original point of contention about knowing Froome's hematocrit at an isolated day in the middle of the Tour: I believe almost nothing can be inferred.
 
Re: Re:

V3R1T4S said:
To hopefully contribute to the discussion: In "The Secret Race" TH talks a lot about EPO & HR and also the drop in hematocrit over a three-week race. Far from a peer-reviewed article, I agree, but more credible than the internet. On page 60 he talks about the general rule of thumb of ~2 points HcT drop per week. On page 106 he details how a regimen of EPO lowered his Madone time and shifted his max heart rate from 177 to 191. Later in the book (I can not find it but my memory recalls) him talking about either EPO or BBs and being able to push through your limits even though you think you are at them. He talks a little about it on page 129 but I believe there is a more detailed discussion elsewhere.
thanks for pointing that out. I haven't read Hamilton's book yet.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

V3R1T4S said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
V3R1T4S said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
V3R1T4S said:
Some basic internet skills (i.e. 2 second google with quotes for exact phrase matching) yields this: http://www.rajeun.net/bicycle.html

Don't care for this argument; enough threads have been ruined here lately by this tit for tat between posters.
Funny how asking for a valid and credible source for a random quote is looked down upon more than posting something without it.
Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]
It was just a simple request, even for a pub chat. There would be no tit for tat if some basic etiquette of posting the source link along with a quote was done in the first place. I don't see why readers should be expected to verify every random tidbit thrown out there.
That's fair and something I can get behind.

To hopefully contribute to the discussion: In "The Secret Race" TH talks a lot about EPO & HR and also the drop in hematocrit over a three-week race. Far from a peer-reviewed article, I agree, but more credible than the internet. On page 60 he talks about the general rule of thumb of ~2 points HcT drop per week. On page 106 he details how a regimen of EPO lowered his Madone time and shifted his max heart rate from 177 to 191. Later in the book (I can not find it but my memory recalls) him talking about either EPO or BBs and being able to push through your limits even though you think you are at them. He talks a little about it on page 129 but I believe there is a more detailed discussion elsewhere.

It would also make sense physiologically since the heart is a muscle so the more oxygenation it has the higher its maximum is and the less it has to work at submaximal levels to provide the same oxygenation to other working muscles -- the exact opposite of going to altitude, for example. This is also consistent with hyperoxic training/supplemental O2 use.

But back to the original point of contention about knowing Froome's hematocrit at an isolated day in the middle of the Tour: I believe almost nothing can be inferred.
He's talking about Blood Bags with this pushing though comment. He says Riis tells him to keep going when he thinks hes at the limit after a transfusion.
 
Re: Re:

V3R1T4S said:
Funny how you can drip condescension but completely miss the point. Must be slow on a certain wattage forum recently. ;)

[If you must know I am an academic scientist in a basic science by profession. You can probably guess my university affiliation from my screen name... I understand the importance of proper citation as much if not more than almost anyone. But this is nothing more than "pub talk" as you've said multiple times, right Alex? djbalt and sniper annihilated another thread and it seemed this one was heading that way. Instead of complaining, one could have done a basic search then used that as a counter-point. But now we have a whole extra page of... YES! Tit for tat.]
My apologies, VERITAS. I am sorry for disturbing your forum experience. But when a source is asked for and not provided, that is worthy of a followup considering the peculiar nature of the anecdote. Whenever I have been asked for sources, like in the LeMond thread, I have readily supplied them. If you would like to police the forum in the future, maybe it would be wise if you volunteered to be MOD next time that they are looking for one.
 
I think it's safe to say now that Froome may have lost some fat but he certainly has gained some chemical assistance. This type of engine wasn't always there. It's alarming to see this type of power after a Tour and well above his test figures.

 
thehog said:
I think it's safe to say now that Froome may have lost some fat but he certainly has gained some chemical assistance. This type of engine wasn't always there. It's alarming to see this type of power after a Tour and well above his test figures.

Really, really high numbers for a second GT.

Generally i think we are much closer to the EPO years than to the clean years where everything above 6W/kg on a 10 min effort would have made you an absolute top star.

All in all the whole field stepped up it seems. I think after Armstrong gone again and many of the big names involved in Operacion Puerto in the years before and also the busting of Cera guys and Contador, cycling wasn't on a bad way in 2011. Speeds were down, but than Vuelta happened and we saw the rise of Team Sky shooting the speeds through the roofs.

Hell, the only year Bertie was stronger than Froome was his 2009 Tour. And even there Verbier was the outlier which increased avarage. Although i am dure Amstrongs comeback also had to do with it.

Funny enough - the “slowest“ Tour winner in recent years was Landis, also he was the only one to get popped.

 
thehog said:
I think it's safe to say now that Froome may have lost some fat but he certainly has gained some chemical assistance. This type of engine wasn't always there. It's alarming to see this type of power after a Tour and well above his test figures.

His base in 2011 and 2012 was much lower than his base since 2013, and his figures this Vuelta still seem to line up with 2011 and 2012, so given that he'd have a higher base now, it's feasible imo for his figures to be like this in the first week of his second GT?

Ofc if we were to compare these figures to pre-2011, that's where the obvious suspicion comes
 
Re:

Gregga said:
Surprise, heart rate is already gone, taken off from Strava rides...
And no power to begin with. But he is clearly doing nice and easy long rides.

Cue swart or somesuch explaining froomes hr is very suppressed in a GT environment (Power not affected ofc). The file from vuelta 2011 TT also had an avg HR in the high 140s from memory. Doubt that file is still online tho. :D
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Vayerism said:
what the **** happened to temperature, did he ride into a fire?
Yeah it looks like he stopped for a coffee at the 125 km mark. No cadence or speed, but the temperature spikes probably from leaving his bike in the sun. It's been mid 30's in Jo-burg the last few days. That or he has to stop mounting his computer near the motor/batteries...

John Swanson
 
thehog said:
Froome is now posting his training rides on Strava. His max heart rate is now 183bpm which strangely is 20 beats more than when he was attacking at 800w on Ventoux! :confused:

This is awesome. I read about Dawg putting his rides on Strava but without the power data. Being new to strava or just forgetting for a moment the attention to details he apparently forgot about his HR. He was also on a normal bike not the "Ventoux" special edition.
 
"So, as she hunkered down in front of the television coverage of one of his individual time trials, she hooked herself up to a heart rate monitor. It revealed that at its peak watching Froome’s effort, her heart was pounding at 171 beats per minute. Later she compared her figures with her man’s data. She discovered the ice cool champion’s heart rate that day had never risen above 167 bpm."

Michelle, Tour de France 2013
 
Rollthedice said:
thehog said:
Froome is now posting his training rides on Strava. His max heart rate is now 183bpm which strangely is 20 beats more than when he was attacking at 800w on Ventoux! :confused:

This is awesome. I read about Dawg putting his rides on Strava but without the power data. Being new to strava or just forgetting for a moment the attention to details he apparently forgot about his HR. He was also on a normal bike not the "Ventoux" special edition.
Ventoux special edition bike was on the charger it appears :cool:

 
thehog said:
Froome is now posting his training rides on Strava. His max heart rate is now 183bpm which strangely is 20 beats more than when he was attacking at 800w on Ventoux! :confused:

Without prejudice to the Ventoux 2013 and wider doping debate in general.....trying to draw comparisons between a sudden isolated spike in heart rate aligned with a one off big effort within the first hour of an otherwise low intensity January training ride, and heart rate towards the end of a long GT stage ridden in absolute peak summer form? Well that's tenuous at best.

Most people who've ridden a bike and studied how their HR responds at various times during training cycles would, i suspect, think this all looks within the range of normal.
 
Jul 14, 2015
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Given the HR nosedives, then explodes into the air and he is not even on a particularly hard point (certainly the speed doesn't do anything), congratulations, you have just learned that HR belts occasionally measure bad data.
 

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