The Grey Area doping thread

[thehog]

Types and uses of using persxibtion non-banned or banned drugs under TUEs;

Kenacort/triamcinolone, an obvious one that can be used freely out of competition and with a Wiggins TUE inside competition. Drop weight ultra fast, extra power, no muscle loss in athletes.

Recently there’s been talk of Telmisartan which is a hyper tension drug which relaxes blood vessels, completely legal and an alternative to GW1516 although not as potent.

Neltrexone, a drug for addicts to block the high of alcohol, opioids etc. also stop messages from the brain wanting to eat. Able to train on an empty stomach for 24 hours at one time.

Viagra used at high altitude assists in blood flow, additionally warms the body.

Salbutamol, if used under the limits can be used in pill form.

Ketones, legal, very expensive.

Micro-dosing of practically any drug with clearance times at a minimum.

 

[Merckx index]

LOL, maybe Brailsford could title his autobiography, "Fifty Shades of Grey".

Yeah, I think this is a timely thread. Some comments:

Does triamcinolone really have no detrimental effect on power? Studies primarily with cell culture confirm that it enhances muscle cell breakdown, both by inhibiting protein synthesis and stimulating protein degradation, and studies with lab animals and humans have reported atrophy of major muscles. It may be that PE is possible because the loss of weight more than compensates for loss of power, but I’m not sure it can be regarded as a magic drug that reduces weight while maintaining original power. In fact, I’d think that while Wiggo might have gotten some climbing benefits with it, it might have hurt his TT ability, since weight of course is less of a factor in that discipline.

Naltrexone has been used as an appetite suppressant, but since it is an opioid antagonist, it could also interfere with endogenous opioid (e.g., endorphins) action, important in pain relief. So while it could be used to enhance weight loss in training, it might also make it more difficult for a rider to push himself to his usual limits.

We’ve discussed salbutamol extensively, of course. I wonder if WADA has considered applying the enantiomer test to samples that are under the allowed threshold. While the results could not be used as the basis for a sanction, the data obtained might be very interesting. E.g., if some riders consistently have a much higher ratio than other riders, one could at least target them for more testing. The main problem I think is the expense; this is not a test that could be used as a routine screen.

 

[thehog]

Yeah, I think this is a timely thread. Some comments:

Does triamcinolone really have no detrimental effect on power? Studies primarily with cell culture confirm that it enhances muscle cell breakdown, both by inhibiting protein synthesis and stimulating protein degradation, and studies with lab animals and humans have reported atrophy of major muscles. It may be that PE is possible because the loss of weight more than compensates for loss of power, but I’m not sure it can be regarded as a magic drug that reduces weight while maintaining original power. In fact, I’d think that while Wiggo might have gotten some climbing benefits with it, it might have hurt his TT ability, since weight of course is less of a factor in that discipline.

Naltrexone has been used as an appetite suppressant, but since it is an opioid antagonist, it could also interfere with endogenous opioid (e.g., endorphins) action, important in pain relief. So while it could be used to enhance weight loss in training, it might also make it more difficult for a rider to push himself to his usual limits.

We’ve discussed salbutamol extensively, of course. I wonder if WADA has considered applying the enantiomer test to samples that are under the allowed threshold. While the results could not be used as the basis for a sanction, the data obtained might be very interesting. E.g., if some riders consistently have a much higher ratio than other riders, one could at least target them for more testing. The main problem I think is the expense; this is not a test that could be used as a routine screen.

The general consensus on triamcinolone is it doesn’t cause the rapid muscle breakdown in endurance athletes, ie if you’re in full training then muscle build outweighs the loss. That is incidental mind you, I have no real source for this information other than bodybuilding forums.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

LOL, maybe Brailsford could title his autobiography, "Fifty Shades of Grey".

Yeah, I think this is a timely thread. Some comments:

Does triamcinolone really have no detrimental effect on power? Studies primarily with cell culture confirm that it enhances muscle cell breakdown, both by inhibiting protein synthesis and stimulating protein degradation, and studies with lab animals and humans have reported atrophy of major muscles. It may be that PE is possible because the loss of weight more than compensates for loss of power, but I’m not sure it can be regarded as a magic drug that reduces weight while maintaining original power. In fact, I’d think that while Wiggo might have gotten some climbing benefits with it, it might have hurt his TT ability, since weight of course is less of a factor in that discipline.

Naltrexone has been used as an appetite suppressant, but since it is an opioid antagonist, it could also interfere with endogenous opioid (e.g., endorphins) action, important in pain relief. So while it could be used to enhance weight loss in training, it might also make it more difficult for a rider to push himself to his usual limits.

We’ve discussed salbutamol extensively, of course. I wonder if WADA has considered applying the enantiomer test to samples that are under the allowed threshold. While the results could not be used as the basis for a sanction, the data obtained might be very interesting. E.g., if some riders consistently have a much higher ratio than other riders, one could at least target them for more testing. The main problem I think is the expense; this is not a test that could be used as a routine screen.

About the muscle wasting qualities of corticosteroids, i think that's where Testosterone/HGH/whichever undetectable anabolic peptide/designer drug they are prepared to take might come into play.

And the situation could be the same with the side effects of any other drugs, prompting the athlete to take another one to counteract the side effects of another, that's how you end up with walking pharmacies, and how you make mistakes, juggling with multiples drugs like that can't be easy and some might even effect each other pharmacokinetics.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Viagra used at high altitude assists in blood flow, additionally warms the body.

Plays havoc with pedalling technique in tight lycra though.

Whose body does it warm?

 

[brownbobby]

Yeah, I think this is a timely thread. Some comments:

Does triamcinolone really have no detrimental effect on power? Studies primarily with cell culture confirm that it enhances muscle cell breakdown, both by inhibiting protein synthesis and stimulating protein degradation, and studies with lab animals and humans have reported atrophy of major muscles. It may be that PE is possible because the loss of weight more than compensates for loss of power, but I’m not sure it can be regarded as a magic drug that reduces weight while maintaining original power. In fact, I’d think that while Wiggo might have gotten some climbing benefits with it, it might have hurt his TT ability, since weight of course is less of a factor in that discipline.

Naltrexone has been used as an appetite suppressant, but since it is an opioid antagonist, it could also interfere with endogenous opioid (e.g., endorphins) action, important in pain relief. So while it could be used to enhance weight loss in training, it might also make it more difficult for a rider to push himself to his usual limits.

We’ve discussed salbutamol extensively, of course. I wonder if WADA has considered applying the enantiomer test to samples that are under the allowed threshold. While the results could not be used as the basis for a sanction, the data obtained might be very interesting. E.g., if some riders consistently have a much higher ratio than other riders, one could at least target them for more testing. The main problem I think is the expense; this is not a test that could be used as a routine screen.

The general consensus on triamcinolone is it doesn’t cause the rapid muscle breakdown in endurance athletes, ie if you’re in full training then muscle build outweighs the loss. That is incidental mind you, I have no real source for this information other than bodybuilding forums.

There's no better place to visit than the BB forums if you want to know about how PED's work...some of those guys don't rely on Google research or anecdotal evidence....just self administer and see what happens

 

[thehog]

Yeah, I think this is a timely thread. Some comments:

Does triamcinolone really have no detrimental effect on power? Studies primarily with cell culture confirm that it enhances muscle cell breakdown, both by inhibiting protein synthesis and stimulating protein degradation, and studies with lab animals and humans have reported atrophy of major muscles. It may be that PE is possible because the loss of weight more than compensates for loss of power, but I’m not sure it can be regarded as a magic drug that reduces weight while maintaining original power. In fact, I’d think that while Wiggo might have gotten some climbing benefits with it, it might have hurt his TT ability, since weight of course is less of a factor in that discipline.

Naltrexone has been used as an appetite suppressant, but since it is an opioid antagonist, it could also interfere with endogenous opioid (e.g., endorphins) action, important in pain relief. So while it could be used to enhance weight loss in training, it might also make it more difficult for a rider to push himself to his usual limits.

We’ve discussed salbutamol extensively, of course. I wonder if WADA has considered applying the enantiomer test to samples that are under the allowed threshold. While the results could not be used as the basis for a sanction, the data obtained might be very interesting. E.g., if some riders consistently have a much higher ratio than other riders, one could at least target them for more testing. The main problem I think is the expense; this is not a test that could be used as a routine screen.

The general consensus on triamcinolone is it doesn’t cause the rapid muscle breakdown in endurance athletes, ie if you’re in full training then muscle build outweighs the loss. That is incidental mind you, I have no real source for this information other than bodybuilding forums.

There's no better place to visit than the BB forums if you want to know about how PED's work...some of those guys don't rely on Google research or anecdotal evidence....just self administer and see what happens

I noticed that and no ethical or moral questions to be answered, just take it in the largest doses possible and scale back if need be.

 

[brownbobby]

Types and uses of using persxibtion non-banned or banned drugs under TUEs;

Kenacort/triamcinolone, an obvious one that can be used freely out of competition and with a Wiggins TUE inside competition. Drop weight ultra fast, extra power, no muscle loss in athletes.

Recently there’s been talk of Telmisartan which is a hyper tension drug which relaxes blood vessels, completely legal and an alternative to GW1516 although not as potent.

Neltrexone, a drug for addicts to block the high of alcohol, opioids etc. also stop messages from the brain wanting to eat. Able to train on an empty stomach for 24 hours at one time.

Viagra used at high altitude assists in blood flow, additionally warms the body.

Salbutamol, if used under the limits can be used in pill form.

Ketones, legal, very expensive.

Micro-dosing of practically any drug with clearance times at a minimum.

On the Neltrexone.....never heard that used as a PED before, I get the appetite suppression, but the main barrier to training for 24 hours on an empty stomach, at least with any kind of intensity, is not feelings of hunger so much as lack of energy. Is there something in the drug that overcomes this?

 

[thehog]

Types and uses of using persxibtion non-banned or banned drugs under TUEs;

Kenacort/triamcinolone, an obvious one that can be used freely out of competition and with a Wiggins TUE inside competition. Drop weight ultra fast, extra power, no muscle loss in athletes.

Recently there’s been talk of Telmisartan which is a hyper tension drug which relaxes blood vessels, completely legal and an alternative to GW1516 although not as potent.

Neltrexone, a drug for addicts to block the high of alcohol, opioids etc. also stop messages from the brain wanting to eat. Able to train on an empty stomach for 24 hours at one time.

Viagra used at high altitude assists in blood flow, additionally warms the body.

Salbutamol, if used under the limits can be used in pill form.

Ketones, legal, very expensive.

Micro-dosing of practically any drug with clearance times at a minimum.

On the Neltrexone.....never heard that used as a PED before, I get the appetite suppression, but the main barrier to training for 24 hours on an empty stomach, at least with any kind of intensity, is not feelings of hunger so much as lack of energy. Is there something in the drug that overcomes this?

I assume intermittent fasting. I can do a 4 hour ride with no breakfast without issues, I couldn’t possibly sustain not eating afterwards though. That’s where it fit in, particularly teaching the body to do without food for long periods.

 

[thehog]

Types and uses of using persxibtion non-banned or banned drugs under TUEs;

Kenacort/triamcinolone, an obvious one that can be used freely out of competition and with a Wiggins TUE inside competition. Drop weight ultra fast, extra power, no muscle loss in athletes.

Recently there’s been talk of Telmisartan which is a hyper tension drug which relaxes blood vessels, completely legal and an alternative to GW1516 although not as potent.

Neltrexone, a drug for addicts to block the high of alcohol, opioids etc. also stop messages from the brain wanting to eat. Able to train on an empty stomach for 24 hours at one time.

Viagra used at high altitude assists in blood flow, additionally warms the body.

Salbutamol, if used under the limits can be used in pill form.

Ketones, legal, very expensive.

Micro-dosing of practically any drug with clearance times at a minimum.

Telmisartan has the added advantage of breaking down visceral fat, which is the internal fat that surrounds your organs. To be hyper skinny it can be easy to shed the outer layer, harder for internal fat.

 

[thehog]

Types and uses of using persxibtion non-banned or banned drugs under TUEs;

Kenacort/triamcinolone, an obvious one that can be used freely out of competition and with a Wiggins TUE inside competition. Drop weight ultra fast, extra power, no muscle loss in athletes.

Recently there’s been talk of Telmisartan which is a hyper tension drug which relaxes blood vessels, completely legal and an alternative to GW1516 although not as potent.

Neltrexone, a drug for addicts to block the high of alcohol, opioids etc. also stop messages from the brain wanting to eat. Able to train on an empty stomach for 24 hours at one time.

Viagra used at high altitude assists in blood flow, additionally warms the body.

Salbutamol, if used under the limits can be used in pill form.

Ketones, legal, very expensive.

Micro-dosing of practically any drug with clearance times at a minimum.

Saw this one today on the bluelight forum of all things drugs;

The most interesting effects of GW501516 in my past experience were rapid weight loss and a huge jump in workout endurance (2x-3x). While Telmisartan just can't approach the metabolic powerhouse of GW501516, it is perhaps the next best thing, readily available and with a well known safety margin at 80mg/day...

I strongly suggest not drinking while taking telmisartan+oleuropein, and not using more than 160mg/day of telmisartan.

 

[King Boonen]

Telmisartan is a PPAR-d agonist so would be banned under S4, 5.1. Why do you think it’s legal?

 

[Ripper]

There's a whole host of medications that can have a eight loss or improved endurance effect. A lot depends on personal reaction, which would require experimentation. For example, many antidepressants actually result in weight gain, but some are more likely to result in weight loss, and the amount is quite variable based on the person. For example, Buproprion or Venlafaxine could result in weight loss and reduced perceived effort, but it really depends on the person.

So, so many medications could be abused

 

[samhocking]

I was wondering due to Corticosteroids being legal in-competition if taken intra-articularly and a TUE only being needed above 30 ng/mL threshold if there was any room to use it in a very low dose intra-muscularly for performance/weight loss benefit? Would the small amount injected to stay below 30 ng/mL without a TUE being needed, be of any benefit long-term?

 

[Ripper]

I was wondering due to Corticosteroids being legal in-competition if taken intra-articularly and a TUE only being needed above 30 ng/mL threshold if there was any room to use it in a very low dose intra-muscularly for performance/weight loss benefit? Would the small amount injected to stay below 30 ng/mL without a TUE being needed, be of any benefit long-term?

There could be benefit, depending on the sensitivity of your response. Not likely one for long term use, even at lower doses, but could have an impact.

I think the "accumulation of marginal gains" is actually the accumulation of marginal legal (possibly not ethical) drug gains.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Telmisartan is a PPAR-d agonist so would be banned under S4, 5.1. Why do you think it’s legal?

No, not banned. Was added to the “watch list” and now removed.

Telmisartan
Telmisartan, an oral anti-hypertension medication, keeps blood vessels from constricting, which could lead to better oxygen uptake in endurance sports. It may also have metabolic modulator properties, like the ability to create more mitochondrial density (the powerhouses of cellular energy production) or change skeletal muscle fiber type (say, from slow- to fast-twitch). It seems that Telmisartan could become the 2017 version of Meldonium, the now-banned drug that brought down scores of Russian athletes this year when it was shifted from the monitoring program to the prohibited list. This is year two on the watch list for Telmisartan—it could be banned in the very near future.

Nefariousness index: Nine. The mechanism of action and actual effect are unclear, but there’s a lot of buzz about similar effects to banned drugs like AICAR and GW1516. Don’t be surprised if it makes the shift from shady to outright outlawed next year.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2105376/guide-dopings-grey-area

Mitragynine and telmisartan were removed from the monitoring list due to the required information on prevalence was obtained, while caffeine, nicotine, tramadol, glucocorticoids, and beta-2-agonists continue to be assessed.

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1056008/alcohol-removed-from-list-of-prohibited-substances-for-2018-by-wada

 

[King Boonen]

If you quote you need to provide a link Hog...

 

[thehog]

Re:

If you quote you need to provide a link Hog...

SAT. Added in the links...

 

[King Boonen]

Thanks. I don't know why it needed monitoring to be honest. There's already plenty of evidence that it activates PPAR-d, has been since 2010 and was fully assayed in 2014 (possibly earlier, this is the paper I know about). It might primarily be an ARB but there's more than enough for it to be covered under the regs for PPAR-d activators.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20176998/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24352213/?i=4&from=/20176998/related

 

[Ripper]

My sense is medicines are being used for big time weight loss, power modulation, and big time recovery. Modern medicine is your friend. Ross Tucker made a pretty interesting 4 minute rant on how the pushing of physical capacities and tolerances was physiologically similar to the same stress as a disease or illness state (link below). So medications that are legal can still make a significant difference. And the fun thing is, while there is a 'normal' response to medications, there is still a great deal of individual variability that can only be understood by experimentation. One drug that helps me lose weight results in another person gaining weight. and of course, the more a medication 'ticks all the boxes', the more likely it is the drug of choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XblhV0yxzOM

 

[thehog]

Re:

Thanks. I don't know why it needed monitoring to be honest. There's already plenty of evidence that it activates PPAR-d, has been since 2010 and was fully assayed in 2014 (possibly earlier, this is the paper I know about). It might primarily be an ARB but there's more than enough for it to be covered under the regs for PPAR-d activators.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20176998/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24352213/?i=4&from=/20176998/related

Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.

No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.

No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.

I think WADA and UCI's code covers so called grey area PEDs, ie illegal. Taking anything to enhance performance is illegal. Just because UCI doesn't police the sport doesn't make it legal.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.

No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.

I think WADA and UCI's code covers so called grey area PEDs, ie illegal. Taking anything to enhance performance is illegal. Just because UCI doesn't police the sport doesn't make it legal.

Actually, the WADA code doesn’t state that. If that were the case you could argue employing a dietician is doping.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.

No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.

I said “bordering on gene doping”. GW501516 most certainly is in that category.

GW501516 (also known as GW501, GW516, GW1516) belongs to family of drugs that act on the PPARD receptors and is an oral drug that is bioactive (has interaction with or effect on cell tissue) in humans.

PPARD is believed to work at the gene level and affects skeletal muscle metabolism. In one laboratory study, PPARD activation seemed to nearly double the performance of running endurance in untrained adult mice.