The It's No Picnic PostNL Thread

[Leinster]

I guess Roche could write a book given he has been to SKY and BMC, Saxo, Tinkoff and DSM

I think its alot to do with the personality of who is in charge

He also rode for Cofidis, Credit Agricole and Ag2R. He’s got a pretty full list, with teams based in multiple different countries.

 

[BlueRoads]

Why if I update this thread it is not pushed up to teh top of the threads under professional racing

in fact I cannot find it in the list

what has changed

Seems pointless posting here

It is top for me?

 

[BlueRoads]

Yeah, a whole account of Roche would be interesting... but I think the way teams work in general has changed quite a lot... so I was thinking more of a comparison between the current methods / attitudes.

 

[Leinster]

It is top for me?

I see yours on top of the “Normal Threads” below the 6 Sticky threads.

It was on top after Dolly posted too, hence I was able to reply to their post.

 

[Ranagazoo]

Roche's comments confirm what we already know, DSM can be a good team if you're a young, inexperienced rider looking to break into the top level and need a strict regime to help you reach your potential. But for a rider in their mid 30s who's experienced it all it's literally the worst possible place to be.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Roche's comments confirm what we already know, DSM can be a good team if you're a young, inexperienced rider looking to break into the top level and need a strict regime to help you reach your potential. But for a rider in their mid 30s who's experienced it all it's literally the worst possible place to be.

You think it's a good idea for young inexperienced riders to dictate them what they have to do, without properly explaining why, or when they question the regime since something is not or appears not to be working for them, to reprimand and punish them instead of including them and looking for a solution together?
From what i gathered from a comment by Arensman's father a few months ago, their new performance manager isn't even a performance manager but somebody who came from a completely different background until recently (something like a geologist or something? Not sure anymore). Yet they keep hiding behind this veil of a "scientific approach".

Are there any books about the different teams and how they work? Comparisons with rider interviews, analyses and such? I would love to read that, as I find it very interesting.

I think by the time that book would be published, half of the contents would be outdated. Teams disappear, teams merge, managers and coaches change teams... Lotto has drastically shifted its focus and methods last year, kicked out the dinosaurs. Other teams get dissolved and people spread to other teams. Even DQT is evolving with a large part of their team going to focus on GC (either as leader or domestique), which will definitely have an impact since there will be less options for sprinters throughout the year. Ineos has also taken on a more aggressive style recently, since they have lost their surefire TDF domination card.

 

[Leinster]

You think it's a good idea for young inexperienced riders to dictate them what they have to do, without properly explaining why, or when they question the regime since something is not or appears not to be working for them, to reprimand and punish them instead of including them and looking for a solution together?
From what i gathered from a comment by Arensman's father a few months ago, their new performance manager isn't even a performance manager but somebody who came from a completely different background until recently (something like a geologist or something? Not sure anymore). Yet they keep hiding behind this veil of a "scientific approach".




I think by the time that book would be published, half of the contents would be outdated. Teams disappear, teams merge, managers and coaches change teams... Lotto has drastically shifted its focus and methods last year, kicked out the dinosaurs. Other teams get dissolved and people spread to other teams. Even DQT is evolving with a large part of their team going to focus on GC (either as leader or domestique), which will definitely have an impact since there will be less options for sprinters throughout the year. Ineos has also taken on a more aggressive style recently, since they have lost their surefire TDF domination card.

All of this. It’s definitely not a good look for young riders to see an experienced rider ask “why?” and be told to be quiet.

 

[Monte Serra]

Comparisons with rider interviews, analyses and such? I would love to read that, as I find it very interesting.

Sam Oomen was asked about the difference between DSM and Jumbo-Visma in a long-form interview by the Rode Lantaarn podcast (in Dutch). He was a bit hesitant to spill the beans on his experiences at DSM, but he did say that the atmosphere in the team had changed over the years, and not for the better. He also said that Jumbo had a much more familiar atmosphere, with many employees who have worked there for years. While at DSM there seems to be more of a rapid change-over also in supporting personnel.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

The Roche interview was very interesting. It’s on the face of it baffling to sign an experienced road captain and then not only treat his opinions as irrelevant but refuse to even explain your methods to him when he asks. I don’t really object to a team trying a new type of training and racing approach. Maybe it will work, maybe it won‘t. But I do object to the idea that it isn’t part of the rider’s job to understand that approach, to ask why and get an explanation.

 

[Leinster]

The Roche interview was very interesting. It’s on the face of it baffling to sign an experienced road captain and then not only treat his opinions as irrelevant but refuse to even explain your methods to him when he asks. I don’t really object to a team trying a new type of training and racing approach. Maybe it will work, maybe it won‘t. But I do object to the idea that it isn’t part of the rider’s job to understand that approach, to ask why and get an explanation.

It’s the interesting dynamic of a cycling team, where contracts are so transitory and the Team is beholden to a sponsor, and that’s it. When you look at other team sports, an approach like that just wouldn’t fly; you’d “lose the dressing room,” and be out the door. In cycling, you just don’t renew the contracts of the troublemakers.

DSM’s management are getting just enough results to keep the sponsors happy and skirt by, and that’s all they have to answer to. If rumors like this were floating about a football team, there’d be fan protests at every game and “sack the coach” chants.

 

[Sandisfan]

The Roche interview was very interesting. It’s on the face of it baffling to sign an experienced road captain and then not only treat his opinions as irrelevant but refuse to even explain your methods to him when he asks. I don’t really object to a team trying a new type of training and racing approach. Maybe it will work, maybe it won‘t. But I do object to the idea that it isn’t part of the rider’s job to understand that approach, to ask why and get an explanation.

I wonder if they treat their approach as Intellectual Property. That they think their Ideas would be stolen to be used by riders who leave and eventually after retirement lead competing teams using their I.P.

 

[Leinster]

I wonder if they treat their approach as Intellectual Property. That they think their Ideas would be stolen to be used by riders who leave and eventually after retirement lead competing teams using their I.P.

They shouldn’t be chasing all their capable-but-outspoken riders out the door to other teams, so.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I wonder if they treat their approach as Intellectual Property. That they think their Ideas would be stolen to be used by riders who leave and eventually after retirement lead competing teams using their I.P.

They'd probably not go that far, but Kemna did state in his Wielerflits interview that they are leading the way to the future, and that other teams will be following their example.

 

[BlueRoads]

They'd probably not go that far, but Kemna did state in his Wielerflits interview that they are leading the way to the future, and that other teams will be following their example.

Because all the teams are eager to constantly lose their best and most talented riders I assume?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Because all the teams are eager to constantly lose their best and most talented riders I assume?

If everybody adopts their system, then the riders have nowhere else to run! It's a genius plan.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

How can anyone support dsm?

How can anyone sign for DSM?

The disrespect to sign an experienced, successful rider and not listen to him.

I hope all riders leave the team

Imagine signing someone as experienced as Vincenzo Nibali (who competed with Nibali for GT podiums a couple of times) and telling him his training is totally wrong, that he doesn't know his own body, that his tactical input is not appreciated.

Embarrassing.

 

[BlueRoads]

How can anyone support dsm?

How can anyone sign for DSM?

The disrespect to sign an experienced, successful rider and not listen to him.

I hope all riders leave the team

Imagine signing someone as experienced as Vincenzo Nibali (who competed with Nibali for GT podiums a couple of times) and telling him his training is totally wrong, that he doesn't know his own body, that his tactical input is not appreciated.

Embarrassing.

It's not even about experience. Certainly there are things that even experienced riders do wrong, have done wrong or can at least do better. Just because someone has done something for years and it somehow worked out it doesn't mean that's the best way. But to deny an athlete the possibility to listen to his body, make responsible decisions and react to race situations with intuition is firstly mean and secondly simply stupid.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

How can anyone support dsm?

How can anyone sign for DSM?

The disrespect to sign an experienced, successful rider and not listen to him.

I hope all riders leave the team

Imagine signing someone as experienced as Vincenzo Nibali (who competed with Nibali for GT podiums a couple of times) and telling him his training is totally wrong, that he doesn't know his own body, that his tactical input is not appreciated.

Embarrassing.

Nibali vs Nibali aye? ;-)

The thing is, let's even assume they do know better, that science, techniques, equipment etc have evolved that an older rider hasn't caught up with current practices, that doesn't mean his experience can not be included or used. Or that you couldn't treat him with the respect he deserves, instead of dismissing him.

 

[HelloDolly]

Dont forget Bling . They screwed him over too . It was their way or the highway and Bling is very experienced
I guess that cost him wins before WVA nd MVP and co came to dominate the scene

 

[tobydawq]

Benoot officially out.

 

[Boes]

Benoot officially out.

Next stop Lotto Jumbo?

 

[BlueRoads]

What on earth is going on at this team? And how can they not see it?

 

[tobydawq]

What on earth is going on at this team? And how can they not see it?

It's the future.

 

[Ricco']

In the past, once some clinic topic had some activity after some time, I always wondered "Uh, let's see what surprising name has been caught up this time".

This thread has replaced that now. Once I see there has been some new postings I'm always looking forward to see which rider has jumped off the DSM ship.

 

[Axel Hangleck]

One riders leaves - no problem, it happens. Two riders leave - again, it happens. Three - one starts to raise an eyebrow. Four riders - hmm, maybe something is up. Five or more - I think there is an issue that needs addressing.......

There is an issue, but they have a system, and are sticking to it, no matter how many leave. It's "their way or the highway". As I've said before, I wonder what the sponsors are thinking? If it was me, I'd like to know what was going on.