The lowest form of treachery.

[online-rider]

Hi everyone

I've bin trolling through the threads lately and been disturbed by these suggestions that teams like Garmin or Columbia and others of that ( loud, proud, anti-doping rhetoric) sort of team are just doping just like the shameless or recidivist doping squads like Liquigas or CSC. Except theyre taking lower doses to make sure no-one gets busted.

Well I just have to say, if this is true, (and i'm not going to say it is or it isn't), then I for one would never be able to tolerate Vaughters or Stapleton or the others on the inside of it.

Vaughters made his team as I remember it, on the wave of anti-doping public feeling calling himself basically the warrior of drug-free cycling and attracting sponsors and thousands of fans on that basis. NOT on the basis of wins.on THE BASIS OF SEEING how a believably clean team stacks up against a dirty peloton. That experiment was the only reason I started following cycling again after a 6 year hiatus.

If these squads are doping and treating their fans like freaking idiots by doping behind their backs whilst winning their plaudits for not doping then I for one consider that to be lower WAY LOWER than Armstrong or Di Luca, Vandenbroucke, Bruyneel or any of the most brazen cheaters.

To make a niche for yourself in cycling and then dupe and **** on guileless sponsors and fans in order to make yourself money. Thats the lowest crime to surface from this whole Landis affair.

I sincerely hope Garmin, Columbia and Sky are clean.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Hi everyone

I've bin trolling through the threads lately and been disturbed by these suggestions that teams like Garmin or Columbia and others of that ( loud, proud, anti-doping rhetoric) sort of team are just doping just like the shameless or recidivist doping squads like Liquigas or CSC. Except theyre taking lower doses to make sure no-one gets busted.

Well I just have to say, if this is true, (and i'm not going to say it is or it isn't), then I for one would never be able to tolerate Vaughters or Stapleton or the others on the inside of it.

Vaughters made his team as I remember it, on the wave of anti-doping public feeling calling himself basically the warrior of drug-free cycling and attracting sponsors and thousands of fans on that basis. NOT on the basis of wins.on THE BASIS OF SEEING how a believably clean team stacks up against a dirty peloton. That experiment was the only reason I started following cycling again after a 6 year hiatus.

If these squads are doping and treating their fans like freaking idiots by doping behind their backs whilst winning their plaudits for not doping then I for one consider that to be lower WAY LOWER than Armstrong or Di Luca, Vandenbroucke, Bruyneel or any of the most brazen cheaters.

To make a niche for yourself in cycling and then dupe and **** on guileless sponsors and fans in order to make yourself money. Thats the lowest crime to surface from this whole Landis affair.

I sincerely hope Garmin, Columbia and Sky are clean.

There's no way they're clean. No way. Look at Stapleton's comments and read between the lines.

But this thread does probably belong in the clinic.

 

[scribe]

I think organized doping is history in this sport. A team can claim clean if they don't see what goes on around their individual cyclists.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20

 

[online-rider]

Sorry guys did i put this in the wrong place how do i move it?

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

You can't. But I can.

Susan

 

[Ferminal]

If Vaughters was true to his word he wouldn't be speaking like he did the day after the Landis allegations dropped. "DZ is here and he's going to win it clean" "This news is disappointing because here we are competing clean" blablablabla. They employed Lim so at the end of the day they were doping to some degree last year.

I find it hard to separate HTC-Columbia from the two you mentioned as doping squads, Liquigas and Saxo Bank.

Sky - we can give them the benefit of the doubt in their first season.

 

[scribe]

If Vaughters was true to his word he wouldn't be speaking like he did the day after the Landis allegations dropped. "DZ is here and he's going to win it clean" "This news is disappointing because here we are competing clean" blablablabla. They employed Lim so at the end of the day they were doping to some degree last year.

I find it hard to separate HTC-Columbia from the two you mentioned as doping squads, Liquigas and Saxo Bank.

Sky - we can give them the benefit of the doubt in their first season.

I find Lim's comments regarding this latest episode to be telling while glancing between the lines. But remember, Lim jumped ship on Landis early on with the 2006 positive. Whether Lim is telling the truth or not, I am sure it was particularly satisfying for FL to oust Lim in the press. Imagine a world where a cheat and a liar has the power to ruin one of his peers with mere words. It's here.

 

[online-rider]

I find it hard to separate HTC-Columbia from the two you mentioned as doping squads, Liquigas and Saxo Bank.

Sky - we can give them the benefit of the doubt in their first season.

Yeah, so do I actually. Its like with all those victories, if they were clean they'd be saying: "Hey look everyone we beat the dopers, we were clean and they were dirty and we won the race, hows that!"

But instead we hear guys like Mick Rogers saying:"I'm getting a little bit sick of all this stuff.",..[lets all just]... "get away from negativity."

 

[blackcat]

Hi everyone

I've bin trolling through the threads lately and been disturbed by these suggestions that teams like Garmin or Columbia and others of that ( loud, proud, anti-doping rhetoric) sort of team are just doping just like the shameless or recidivist doping squads like Liquigas or CSC. Except theyre taking lower doses to make sure no-one gets busted.

Well I just have to say, if this is true, (and i'm not going to say it is or it isn't), then I for one would never be able to tolerate Vaughters or Stapleton or the others on the inside of it.

Vaughters made his team as I remember it, on the wave of anti-doping public feeling calling himself basically the warrior of drug-free cycling and attracting sponsors and thousands of fans on that basis. NOT on the basis of wins.on THE BASIS OF SEEING how a believably clean team stacks up against a dirty peloton. That experiment was the only reason I started following cycling again after a 6 year hiatus.

If these squads are doping and treating their fans like freaking idiots by doping behind their backs whilst winning their plaudits for not doping then I for one consider that to be lower WAY LOWER than Armstrong or Di Luca, Vandenbroucke, Bruyneel or any of the most brazen cheaters.

To make a niche for yourself in cycling and then dupe and **** on guileless sponsors and fans in order to make yourself money. Thats the lowest crime to surface from this whole Landis affair.

I sincerely hope Garmin, Columbia and Sky are clean.

Liquigas: "those Garmin guys are @ssholes"

think that tells you everything you need to know. Does anyone seriously think Frodo da Dwarf is clean?

 

[blackcat]

Yeah, so do I actually. Its like with all those victories, if they were clean they'd be saying: "Hey look everyone we beat the dopers, we were clean and they were dirty and we won the race, hows that!"

But instead we hear guys like Mick Rogers saying:"I'm getting a little bit sick of all this stuff.",..[lets all just]... "get away from negativity."

CSC and Columbia were all on CERA in 2008 Tour.

 

[ludwig]

What do you want us to say Online-Rider? Of course the media protestations were bull****. Vaughters and Stapleton attempted to inaugorate a new form of omerta following the scandals of 2006. Now they are backing away from "we're clean" claims, but at the time it was believed that insisting the team is 'clean' was the only way to mollify sponsers.

Landis' revelations get to the crux of it....for cycling insiders, lying to the fans about this kind of thing is what is considered best for the sport.

 

[thingswelike]

I still don't see it quite like others here. I feel that Garmin are clean. But they are worried that rider's and management's pasts might harm their credibility and hunt for sponsorship.
So I can see why having their names dragged through the mud again doesn't suit.

Lets say for example they'd done the decent thing and said "okay, I was doping in 2005, but I hated that lifestyle. Lance made me do it, but I left as soon as I could see there was a chance to ride clean with Garmin".
Unfortunately, I don't see how the UCI/USADA/whoever would have any choice other than to give them a 2 year suspension. Would that help anyone? I don't know. It would if it was in conjunction with whistle-blowing I suppose, but I can definitely see why riders who are clean now but doped less than 8 years ago, wouldn't get on their high horses now.

 

[thingswelike]

That's Garmin though - I've never really seen Columbia as being overtly anti-doping. I don't trust CSC/Saxo Bank either.

 

[maltiv]

Well, I believe Sky are clean, or at least cleaner than many other teams. Else they wouldn't be climbing so badly...right?

Not so sure about Garmin and HTC. They are American, after all.

 

[Ashtabula]

That's Garmin though - I've never really seen Columbia as being overtly anti-doping. I don't trust CSC/Saxo Bank either.

Officially, as a team, I have the same impression; they certainly haven't had a documentary, repeatedly shown on American cable, made about their new way of doing things like Garmin has.

Bert Grabsch had some severe things to say about doping after the Phonak collapse, I think also at the time of his World's TT victory in 2008, but that may be necessary both in the contemporary German context--the most anti-doping atmosphere in Europe, I gather--and his personal need to disassociate himself.

 

[Benotti69]

anybody find it strange the Millar suddenly left the Giro with one those standard stomach excuses that we tend to hear alot from cyclists????

Wiggins definitely has a question mark above his TdF performance last year, but his performance in the Giro has been a 'clean' performance but whether he is..who knows..

at this current stage in pro cycling it seems you need to be very careless to get caught or maybe the UCI are throwing token caes to appease the media and fans that the blood passport is working and its an unlucky lotto winner as to who gets caught....never a big name....

It stinks from top to bottom. Too much money in cycling now far too much and it is ruining it, the greed for it. an example the cost of a racing bike is not acceptable anymore and the TT bikes are a joke. let them keep the wheels but use standard bikes...

 

[ergmonkey]

While I'm not a Garmin fan (I see them as a repository of mild under-achievers and zero-charisma dorks, DZ excluded) I do admire JV's subtle honesty. He never has pretended that he is building a team of saints. Instead, he always focuses on the "present" and "future" behavior of teams and riders, and he makes it exceedingly easy for anyone who cares to do so to read between the lines about his own past. Similarly, hiring David Millar fits the team structure (both the under-achiever and former doper parts), as does looking to former USPS (Zabriskie, Vande Velde, Danielson) and Phonak (Hesjedal, Hunter) riders for English-speaking stars and wannabe's.

Who knows if they're clean. I would be willing to believe that they're at least as clean as anybody else who matters, though. If the sport is cleaning up at all, then so are Garmin. If not, then I think there's only one way CVV goes top 5 in the Tour and Hesjedal goes top 10 in the Ardennes.

 

[Race Radio]

If Vaughters was true to his word he wouldn't be speaking like he did the day after the Landis allegations dropped. "DZ is here and he's going to win it clean" "This news is disappointing because here we are competing clean" blablablabla. They employed Lim so at the end of the day they were doping to some degree last year.

I find it hard to separate HTC-Columbia from the two you mentioned as doping squads, Liquigas and Saxo Bank.

Sky - we can give them the benefit of the doubt in their first season.

While I am sure JV started off years ago with the right intentions he now has too much skin in the game. Speaking out would do little for him and harm him a great deal. That is how the Omerta works.

 

[ludwig]

That so many posters here believe Garmin is clean is a testimony to the success of Vaughters' approach. The casual fan wants to believe, so it's better to string this fan along, letting him believe in what makes him happy. Even today the leg-work done to portray Garmin is a clean team continues to be the impression for casual fans.

I find it pretty crazy there are still believers after Landis' confession, however. Landis actually stated that he hired Lim (Garmin's trainer/nutrionist) to assist him in his doping program in 2006. Garmin hired him for the "clean team" for 2007.

What more do you need than that?

 

[Leopejo]

Hi everyone

I've bin trolling through the threads lately and been disturbed by these suggestions that teams like Garmin or Columbia and others of that ( loud, proud, anti-doping rhetoric) sort of team are just doping just like the shameless or recidivist doping squads like Liquigas or CSC. Except theyre taking lower doses to make sure no-one gets busted.

Why would you single Liquigas or CSC (Saxo Bank?) out?

 

[Martin318is]

Landis actually stated that he hired Lim (Garmin's trainer/nutrionist) to assist him in his doping program in 2006. Garmin hired him for the "clean team" for 2007.

What more do you need than that?

a fair bit more actually - its not actually a logical truism that because Lim was involved in doping at Phonak he therefore is involved in doping at Garmin. (It just means its more likely - not definite)

At this point I think that Bradley was on his own program last year and the rest of the team were not involved. It may well be the case that Lim helped him, but that supposition doesn't lead to proof that the rest of the team is dirty.

For the record, a lot of deeply devoted cycling fans also think Garmin are clean. Its not just the July club.

Without something more concrete beyond supposition its just a gut feeling thing and that is why opinions are divided on the issue - some a pre-disposed to believe and others are pre-disposed to be adamant that team X are all doping.

 

[online-rider]

Why would you single Liquigas or CSC (Saxo Bank?) out?

Because of Di Luca(last year) and Basso(under riis) as well as Pelizotti and Hamilton. Plus current riders who I don't believe:
Cancellara
A Schleck
F Schleck
Voigt
Basso(at liqui)

 

[Alex III]

anybody find it strange the Millar suddenly left the Giro with one those standard stomach excuses that we tend to hear alot from cyclists????

Im not a cyclist but as an athlete that has travelled a lot, those stomach bugs are VERY common on the road and can be pretty treacherous. I'm sure they are used as a cover for someone with other motives sometimes, but I don't doubt that it happens as frequently as it seems to.

 

[dancing on pedals]

Because of Di Luca(last year) and Basso(under riis) as well as Pelizotti and Hamilton. Plus current riders who I don't believe:
Cancellara
A Schleck
F Schleck
Voigt
Basso(at liqui)

di luca was riding for LPR Brakes Ballan from 2008 while 2009
thanks