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The lowest form of treachery.

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Mar 4, 2010
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ludwig said:
That so many posters here believe Garmin is clean is a testimony to the success of Vaughters' approach. The casual fan wants to believe, so it's better to string this fan along, letting him believe in what makes him happy. Even today the leg-work done to portray Garmin is a clean team continues to be the impression for casual fans.

I find it pretty crazy there are still believers after Landis' confession, however. Landis actually stated that he hired Lim (Garmin's trainer/nutrionist) to assist him in his doping program in 2006. Garmin hired him for the "clean team" for 2007.

What more do you need than that?

Landis also said Vaughters encouraged him to spill the beans after his positive test... That IM exchange with Andreu also puts JV in a good light...


Jul 16, 2010
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scribe said:
I find Lim's comments regarding this latest episode to be telling while glancing between the lines. But remember, Lim jumped ship on Landis early on with the 2006 positive. Whether Lim is telling the truth or not, I am sure it was particularly satisfying for FL to oust Lim in the press. Imagine a world where a cheat and a liar has the power to ruin one of his peers with mere words. It's here.

Poor Lim! He had no idea that Floyd was doping, particularly during the infamous "Floyd rode his bike all the way to the start of the TdF." As soon as I heard that story, I suspected funny business. Either Lim was complicit in the doping that year, or he's the most incompetent trainer ever for not suspecting doping. I'll take the former, particularly given all the puke Lim spewed on VS (OLN?) that year about pedaling style and drinking 70 bottles of water.

What a crock of ***. Those accusations against Lim sting because they're most likely true. You either get to shout from the rooftops that Landis has no credibility or renounce everything he says because he's a "liar", but you don't get to meld the two into some illogical hybrid argument that suits your momentary needs.
Jul 23, 2009
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scribe said:
Imagine a world where a cheat and a liar has the power to ruin one of his peers with mere words. It's here.
If that were true a grand jury would not have been convened and there would be no need for an investigation. Nobody has been ruined yet, some just had some mud slung on them which is hardly new to anyone in cycling.
Jul 17, 2009
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online-rider said:
Hi everyone:rolleyes:

I've bin trolling through the threads lately and been disturbed by these suggestions that teams like Garmin or Columbia and others of that ( loud, proud, anti-doping rhetoric) sort of team are just doping just like the shameless or recidivist doping squads like Liquigas or CSC. Except theyre taking lower doses to make sure no-one gets busted.

Well I just have to say, if this is true, (and i'm not going to say it is or it isn't), then I for one would never be able to tolerate Vaughters or Stapleton or the others on the inside of it.

Vaughters made his team as I remember it, on the wave of anti-doping public feeling calling himself basically the warrior of drug-free cycling and attracting sponsors and thousands of fans on that basis. NOT on the basis of wins.on THE BASIS OF SEEING how a believably clean team stacks up against a dirty peloton. That experiment was the only reason I started following cycling again after a 6 year hiatus.

If these squads are doping and treating their fans like freaking idiots by doping behind their backs whilst winning their plaudits for not doping then I for one consider that to be lower WAY LOWER than Armstrong or Di Luca, Vandenbroucke, Bruyneel or any of the most brazen cheaters.

To make a niche for yourself in cycling and then dupe and **** on guileless sponsors and fans in order to make yourself money. Thats the lowest crime to surface from this whole Landis affair.

I sincerely hope Garmin, Columbia and Sky are clean.

the same vaughters who criticized the UCI and Le TOur for their 'over the top' drug standards back when he was a rider. remember the bee sting?