sniper said:
Do such things exist?
Any way, I would love to hear your arguments as to why you 'feel' that the accelerations posted are indeed "physiologically impossible". So please "enlighten" me when you have the time
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Do such things exist?
Any way, I would love to hear your arguments as to why you 'feel' that the accelerations posted are indeed "physiologically impossible". So please "enlighten" me when you have the time
Cance > TheRest said:sniper said:
Do such things exist?
Any way, I would love to hear your arguments as to why you 'feel' that the accelerations posted are indeed "physiologically impossible". So please "enlighten" me when you have the time
as argued on multiple occasions in the "the motorbike exists!" thread, the sum of [cadence+accelleration+gearchoice] in those jumps looks unreal.
As for that blogpost you linked, i looked back at it, and tbh, I don't see how it has any bearing on my view of those jumps.
The bloggers labels the P-R jump 'mindboggling', though admittedly he adds 'not impossible' considering it's cancellara we're talking about. Fair enough.
Yet I don't see how it affects or contradicts my claim that the sum of [cadence+accelleration+gearchoice] in those jumps looks unreal.
You think it looks real? Can you show me a similar jump from any other rider in the history of cycling? Hell, can you show me a similar jump from Cancellara anywhere before or after 2010? I've asked this question many times, yet nobody has been able to show me anything remotely similar.
btw, Here's a link to a more elaborate discussion of that particular blogpost:
[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1712663#p1712663]viewtopic.php?p=1712663#p1712663
Forget it, I actually thought you had something substantial to add to your opinion. Nobody disagrees that Cancellara's P-R acceleration is stunning. But you have to consider that we are talking about the greatest time trialist from 2005-2011, a guy who has beaten the best field of sprinters on a Tour stage in 2007 and, most importantly, a rider who has won lots of times by making trademark jumps to keep the field away. I don't consider your "argument" an argument. It is just an opinion against a rider, you don't seem to like.sniper said:Cance > TheRest said:sniper said:
Do such things exist?
Any way, I would love to hear your arguments as to why you 'feel' that the accelerations posted are indeed "physiologically impossible". So please "enlighten" me when you have the time
as argued on multiple occasions in the "the motorbike exists!" thread, the sum of [cadence+accelleration+gearchoice] in those jumps looks unreal.
As for that blogpost you linked, i looked back at it, and tbh, I don't see how it has any bearing on my view of those jumps.
The bloggers labels the P-R jump 'mindboggling', though admittedly he adds 'not impossible' considering it's cancellara we're talking about. Fair enough.
Yet I don't see how it affects or contradicts my claim that the sum of [cadence+accelleration+gearchoice] in those jumps looks unreal.
You think it looks real? Can you show me a similar jump from any other rider in the history of cycling? Hell, can you show me a similar jump from Cancellara anywhere before or after 2010? I've asked this question many times, yet nobody has been able to show me anything remotely similar.
btw, Here's a link to a more elaborate discussion of that particular blogpost:
[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1712663#p1712663]viewtopic.php?p=1712663#p1712663
As for your request of similarly accelerations since 2010, I have found some which are definitely worth a look. I believe that Cancellara was very much at the same strength in atleast 2011 and 2012 as he was in 2010.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUWTwPu_LA - E3 harelbeke 2011. Jump to 3.51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnJ25v2uugs - Strade Bianche 2012. Drops GVA in seated position on the last steep hill before Siena. Go to 10.33
In 2013, I think we all know what happened on Kwaremont and Paterberg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuRvmWdSQ-s - Paterberg 2013 - very similar to the crushing of Boonen in 2010 Flanders.
Cance > TheRest said:
What does it look like when a rider is putting out 1400 Watts? The bike is rocking back and forth. The rider is positioned forward and either raised or fully out of the saddle. Afterwards there's some recovery. Think of a mid-race sprint or some track racing. What did Cancellara look like? He just upped the cadence and took off at 60 km/hr while making little motorbike noises with his mouth. And kept going... That is why the world of cycling started laughing when they saw his performance.
John Swanson
well said, Scienceiscool.
all three are classifiable as suspicious, i would say.
Not as visually compelling as 2010, but still, highly dodgy, and I would argue, motor-like dodgy.
Let's break it down:
1. Harelbeke: not sure, very impressive and could be a motor.
Also, listen to the commentator at the beginning of that footage, when there is no camera with Cancellara. Apparently he's turning on some massively impressive turbo on the Oude Kwaremont. The commentator is looking for words.
2. Strade Bianche. Look at his hand movement in between ca. 11:25-11:30. Turning on the engine? After that click - coming out of the hairpin - he seems to be getting the real boost. I say engine.
3. Paterberg: not by far as impressive as the Muur in 2010, but still impressive alright.
Important to stress: the REAL boost comes after the steepest part of the climb, starting ca. 1:10.
Now look at his handmovement, there, exactly at 1:10. After that, it's byebye Sagan.
Yikes.
Maybe Tienus or others can have a look at the clicking and say if it looks like regular gear changing or not.
great work.Cance > TheRest said:
all three are classifiable as suspicious, i would say.
Not as visually compelling as 2010, but still, highly dodgy, and I would argue, motor-like dodgy.
Let's break it down:
1. Harelbeke: not sure, very impressive and could be a motor.
Also, listen to the commentator at the beginning of that footage, when there is no camera with Cancellara. Apparently he's turning on some massively impressive turbo on the Oude Kwaremont. The commentator is looking for words.
2. Strade Bianche. Look at his hand movement in between ca. 11:25-11:30. Turning on the engine? After that click - coming out of the hairpin - he seems to be getting the real boost. I say engine.
3. Paterberg: not by far as impressive as the Muur in 2010, but still impressive alright.
Important to stress: the REAL boost comes after the steepest part of the climb, starting ca. 1:10.
Now look at his handmovement, there, exactly at 1:10. After that, it's byebye Sagan.
Yikes.
Maybe Tienus or others can have a look at the clicking and say if it looks like regular gear changing or not.
You are contradicting your former argument (or just ad-hoc'ing your hypothesis to include the 2011-12 year). I hope you realize that.sniper said:
As for your claims, what is so unnatural about upping the pace, when the road flattens?
not contradicting.Cance > TheRest said:
adapting, yes, in that I'm now more willing to consider he was motordoping not just in 2010.
is that a problem?
if you find new evidence, normal thing is to assess it and adjust existing hypotheses accordingly.
It's obviously about the pace relative to his opponents, the distance he puts on his opponents.
Very suspicious, imo.
Though, again, none of the three jumps are as visually compelling as the 2010 P-R and RvV footage.
Here's my stance:
1. I'm pretty convinced of the motor in 2010 P-R & RvV.
2. Based on the footage you provided I'm most willing to consider motorization in those instances as well, though slightly less convinced as for 2010.
Re:
In line with other muur ascent times, even slower than others
Is boonen unbeatable or something?...fabian at 100% is always imo better than him. It was epic and i loved it.
ebandit said:
In line with other muur ascent times, even slower than others
Is boonen unbeatable or something?...fabian at 100% is always imo better than him. It was epic and i loved it.
Re: Re:
Cancellara hardly moved his upper body as he went full gas.
Combine that with the remarkable never-before seen bike-switch fiasco
(http://www.dhnet.be/sports/cyclisme/jacky-durand-cancellara-n-a-pas-tout-dit-video-51b7980be4b0de6db983473e) and a motor is simply the most plausible explanation.
yeah, loved it too, and yes, it was epic.
femke has made it look more prosaic though.
parts of the Muur are 18-19%.jens_attacks said:
Cancellara hardly moved his upper body as he went full gas.
Combine that with the remarkable never-before seen bike-switch fiasco
(http://www.dhnet.be/sports/cyclisme/jacky-durand-cancellara-n-a-pas-tout-dit-video-51b7980be4b0de6db983473e) and a motor is simply the most plausible explanation.
yeah, loved it too, and yes, it was epic.
femke has made it look more prosaic though.
Re: Re:
Boonen has 4 Roubaix cobbles. Luigi has 3, so i think Boonen is better*.
* By better you can add PEDs and motors to the equation and whatever other cheating methods are used in pro cycling.
jens_attacks said:
Boonen has 4 Roubaix cobbles. Luigi has 3, so i think Boonen is better*.
* By better you can add PEDs and motors to the equation and whatever other cheating methods are used in pro cycling.
Re: Re:
I loved it, too. At the time. Cancellara was my favorite rider by far. But the more time goes by, the more suspicious it looks. Although, frankly, it looked pretty dodgy even then - despite the excitement.
Before the race was even over reporters (cycling reporters, no less - not exactly tigers of investigative journalism) were asking questions. Not just asking questions, though - expressing disbelief. What was up with those bike changes, they want to know. They want to see the bike. "Sure," Riis says, "give us a moment to get it together." Then the bike is produced. See, here it is. Pictures are taken. And soon someone is pointing out that it isn't even the same bike. Remember that?
Here on this forum discussion begins immediately. Questions are raised. Then the Italian dude, I think it was, produces his video accusing Cancellara of using a motor. Sure, it looks suspicious, we all say, but it's not technologically feasible - and even if it were, no one would risk it: the risk/reward ratio just made it not worth trying. (I remember making that point myself.) But then some of us remember who we're dealing with. Mister 60% himself.
Never mind how startling that massive, seated acceleration was on the climb. Forget the fact that while Cancellara is sitting, and accelerating, and zooming up the climb Boonen is standing, and slowing and cramping. Never mind all that. What happens as Cancellara crests the Muur is just as outlandish. He doesn't slow, doesn't pause - if anything he accelerates, motors off away from Boonen still struggling on the Muur, exactly as you would if you were motoring. Not normal.
https://youtu.be/z6z7uUe0tVA?t=2m8s
A lot of water passes under the bridge between then and now, but as recently as a few months ago most fans who discussed it at all still said moto-doping was science fiction. Better check your tinfoil hat, they said, it's slipping.
Then along comes a 19 year old U23 rider who manages to get herself busted with a motor in her race bike. At the race.
https://youtu.be/kv3CiyrRTMg
Not all that much difference between her acceleration and his, except that she is struggling on the bike.
Nothing here is absolutely definitive, of course. But when you put it all together with everything else we know about pro cycling, you must admit that Cancellara moto-doping at RvV 2010 is more likely than not. A lot more likely.
jens_attacks said:
I loved it, too. At the time. Cancellara was my favorite rider by far. But the more time goes by, the more suspicious it looks. Although, frankly, it looked pretty dodgy even then - despite the excitement.
Before the race was even over reporters (cycling reporters, no less - not exactly tigers of investigative journalism) were asking questions. Not just asking questions, though - expressing disbelief. What was up with those bike changes, they want to know. They want to see the bike. "Sure," Riis says, "give us a moment to get it together." Then the bike is produced. See, here it is. Pictures are taken. And soon someone is pointing out that it isn't even the same bike. Remember that?
Here on this forum discussion begins immediately. Questions are raised. Then the Italian dude, I think it was, produces his video accusing Cancellara of using a motor. Sure, it looks suspicious, we all say, but it's not technologically feasible - and even if it were, no one would risk it: the risk/reward ratio just made it not worth trying. (I remember making that point myself.) But then some of us remember who we're dealing with. Mister 60% himself.
Never mind how startling that massive, seated acceleration was on the climb. Forget the fact that while Cancellara is sitting, and accelerating, and zooming up the climb Boonen is standing, and slowing and cramping. Never mind all that. What happens as Cancellara crests the Muur is just as outlandish. He doesn't slow, doesn't pause - if anything he accelerates, motors off away from Boonen still struggling on the Muur, exactly as you would if you were motoring. Not normal.
https://youtu.be/z6z7uUe0tVA?t=2m8s
A lot of water passes under the bridge between then and now, but as recently as a few months ago most fans who discussed it at all still said moto-doping was science fiction. Better check your tinfoil hat, they said, it's slipping.
Then along comes a 19 year old U23 rider who manages to get herself busted with a motor in her race bike. At the race.
https://youtu.be/kv3CiyrRTMg
Not all that much difference between her acceleration and his, except that she is struggling on the bike.
Nothing here is absolutely definitive, of course. But when you put it all together with everything else we know about pro cycling, you must admit that Cancellara moto-doping at RvV 2010 is more likely than not. A lot more likely.
Re: Re:
Alberto "Pantani" Contador after accusations (justified
it seems now) that he was moto-cheating at the Giro.
Actually, my friend, the "science fiction" quote is fromMaxiton said:jens_attacks said:
I loved it, too. At the time. Cancellara was my favorite rider by far. But the more time goes by, the more suspicious it looks. Although, frankly, it looked pretty dodgy even then - despite the excitement.
Before the race was even over reporters (cycling reporters, no less - not exactly tigers of investigative journalism) were asking questions. Not just asking questions, though - expressing disbelief. What was up with those bike changes, they want to know. They want to see the bike. "Sure," Riis says, "give us a moment to get it together." Then the bike is produced. See, here it is. Pictures are taken. And soon someone is pointing out that it isn't even the same bike. Remember that?
Here on this forum discussion begins immediately. Questions are raised. Then the Italian dude, I think it was, produces his video accusing Cancellara of using a motor. Sure, it looks suspicious, we all say, but it's not technologically feasible - and even if it were, no one would risk it: the risk/reward ratio just made it not worth trying. (I remember making that point myself.) But then some of us remember who we're dealing with. Mister 60% himself.
Never mind how startling that massive, seated acceleration was on the climb. Forget the fact that while Cancellara is sitting, and accelerating, and zooming up the climb Boonen is standing, and slowing and cramping. Never mind all that. What happens as Cancellara crests the Muur is just as outlandish. He doesn't slow, doesn't pause - if anything he accelerates, motors off away from Boonen still struggling on the Muur, exactly as you would if you were motoring. Not normal.
https://youtu.be/z6z7uUe0tVA?t=2m8s
A lot of water passes under the bridge between then and now, but as recently as a few months ago most fans who discussed it at all still said moto-doping was science fiction. Better check your tinfoil hat, they said, it's slipping.
Then along comes a 19 year old U23 rider who manages to get herself busted with a motor in her race bike. At the race.
https://youtu.be/kv3CiyrRTMg
Not all that much difference between her acceleration and his, except that she is struggling on the bike.
Nothing here is absolutely definitive, of course. But when you put it all together with everything else we know about pro cycling, you must admit that Cancellara moto-doping at RvV 2010 is more likely than not. A lot more likely.
Alberto "Pantani" Contador after accusations (justified
it seems now) that he was moto-cheating at the Giro.
Re: Re:
I know that. That's where I picked it up.
oldcrank said:Actually, my friend, the "science fiction" quote is fromMaxiton said:jens_attacks said:
I loved it, too. At the time. Cancellara was my favorite rider by far. But the more time goes by, the more suspicious it looks. Although, frankly, it looked pretty dodgy even then - despite the excitement.
Before the race was even over reporters (cycling reporters, no less - not exactly tigers of investigative journalism) were asking questions. Not just asking questions, though - expressing disbelief. What was up with those bike changes, they want to know. They want to see the bike. "Sure," Riis says, "give us a moment to get it together." Then the bike is produced. See, here it is. Pictures are taken. And soon someone is pointing out that it isn't even the same bike. Remember that?
Here on this forum discussion begins immediately. Questions are raised. Then the Italian dude, I think it was, produces his video accusing Cancellara of using a motor. Sure, it looks suspicious, we all say, but it's not technologically feasible - and even if it were, no one would risk it: the risk/reward ratio just made it not worth trying. (I remember making that point myself.) But then some of us remember who we're dealing with. Mister 60% himself.
Never mind how startling that massive, seated acceleration was on the climb. Forget the fact that while Cancellara is sitting, and accelerating, and zooming up the climb Boonen is standing, and slowing and cramping. Never mind all that. What happens as Cancellara crests the Muur is just as outlandish. He doesn't slow, doesn't pause - if anything he accelerates, motors off away from Boonen still struggling on the Muur, exactly as you would if you were motoring. Not normal.
https://youtu.be/z6z7uUe0tVA?t=2m8s
A lot of water passes under the bridge between then and now, but as recently as a few months ago most fans who discussed it at all still said moto-doping was science fiction. Better check your tinfoil hat, they said, it's slipping.
Then along comes a 19 year old U23 rider who manages to get herself busted with a motor in her race bike. At the race.
https://youtu.be/kv3CiyrRTMg
Not all that much difference between her acceleration and his, except that she is struggling on the bike.
Nothing here is absolutely definitive, of course. But when you put it all together with everything else we know about pro cycling, you must admit that Cancellara moto-doping at RvV 2010 is more likely than not. A lot more likely.
Alberto "Pantani" Contador after accusations (justified
it seems now) that he was moto-cheating at the Giro.
I know that.
That's where I picked it up.
You should watch frank vdb, museeuw, pantani or bartoli then
Cancellara's attack doesn't even come close to those.
Cancellara's attack doesn't even come close to those.
Re: Re:
There have always been phenomenal riders, therefore nobody uses a motor. Even though you've seen it with your own eyes (Femke). Got it. I don't think it's rational, but hey. Knock yourself out.
John Swanson
jens_attacks said:
There have always been phenomenal riders, therefore nobody uses a motor. Even though you've seen it with your own eyes (Femke). Got it. I don't think it's rational, but hey. Knock yourself out.
John Swanson
Re: Re:
i already said that i believe someone might have used it. even in the bigger races.
but it would be a desperate rider who would never reach the same results ever again after 2010. when controls and media talking began. also i believe that he did it on his own.
imo, for guys like froome,cancellara,contador you have to look in another place to find their engines. and yes, i don't believe for a second than anyone of those ever used mechanical doping. could i be wrong? of course.
ScienceIsCool said:
i already said that i believe someone might have used it. even in the bigger races.
but it would be a desperate rider who would never reach the same results ever again after 2010. when controls and media talking began. also i believe that he did it on his own.
imo, for guys like froome,cancellara,contador you have to look in another place to find their engines. and yes, i don't believe for a second than anyone of those ever used mechanical doping. could i be wrong? of course.
Re: Re:
more to the point, you can dope all you want, and have the strongest biological engine ever, you still gotta move your upper body from left to right and get out of the saddle if you want to engage said engine and turn power into the highest possible speed on a 19% climb.
No quantity of doping can explain what Cance did there.
A strictly PED-doped rider may go faster up the Muur than Cance did, but will never ever do so in-saddle with hardly any upper body movement.
anno 2016 you gotta be kidding still using that as a serious argument.jens_attacks said:
more to the point, you can dope all you want, and have the strongest biological engine ever, you still gotta move your upper body from left to right and get out of the saddle if you want to engage said engine and turn power into the highest possible speed on a 19% climb.
No quantity of doping can explain what Cance did there.
A strictly PED-doped rider may go faster up the Muur than Cance did, but will never ever do so in-saddle with hardly any upper body movement.
The Froome 2013 attack overlaid with power and HR data screams motorized to me. Just unnatural looking and the data supports it.
As long as we're talking 2011 E3, the most memorable part for me was Cancellara catching and blowing by the breakaway group (of favorites, not early-break no-hopers) like they're riding beach cruisers. A wide open 6 lane highway and he rides a sprinting GVA off his wheel, if memory serves. It looks like what happens when I'm trying to draft a car and it decides to just accelerate. Can't find the clip unfortunately.
Re:
That was Haussler, you can find the clip here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUWTwPu_LA
proffate said:
That was Haussler, you can find the clip here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUWTwPu_LA
Re: Re:
Now I've looked at the other jumps in there as well and the sum of it just screams motor.
not pretty.
Note also that earlier in the finale he had a mechanical and he had to make up a lot of distance.
would really be good to have Tienus or anybody in the know looking a bit closer at those finger movements from Cancellara.
It seems he's clicking much more than any of the other riders.
Of course much of it could be gear switching, but it's not always apparent why he would be switching gears and often you see him clicking but his cadence remains steady.
Would love somebody to tell me whether or not that's normal so i can stop looking at it.
yeah, this is the footage we looked at on the previous page, though I previously only looked at the jump at ca. 4:00 into that clip.burning said:
Now I've looked at the other jumps in there as well and the sum of it just screams motor.
not pretty.
Note also that earlier in the finale he had a mechanical and he had to make up a lot of distance.
would really be good to have Tienus or anybody in the know looking a bit closer at those finger movements from Cancellara.
It seems he's clicking much more than any of the other riders.
Of course much of it could be gear switching, but it's not always apparent why he would be switching gears and often you see him clicking but his cadence remains steady.
Would love somebody to tell me whether or not that's normal so i can stop looking at it.
@1:36 regular gear shift, i think?
if so, his clicking elsewhere doesn't look anything like that.
if so, his clicking elsewhere doesn't look anything like that.
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