Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

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Btw, has he ever really tried his best in a time trial? A shorter, full gas effort should suit him given his CX skills, right?

I'm not saying he should try and keep yellow, on stage 5, lol. But I would be curious to see how close he could get to Van Aert's all rounder abilities if he suddenly decided to focus on road cycling.
 
I wasn't aware I had to explain my opinions to random strangers on the intertubes...so I won't.
In other words, you have no arguments to back-up your opinion. No surprise there. As far as you "having" to do anything on a random forum on the internet; of course you don't. One has to wonder though what you think the point is of a forum where opinions are publicly shared, challenged, and discussed...
 
Btw, has he ever really tried his best in a time trial? A shorter, full gas effort should suit him given his CX skills, right?

I'm not saying he should try and keep yellow, on stage 5, lol. But I would be curious to see how close he could get to Van Aert's all rounder abilities if he suddenly decided to focus on road cycling.
I think he went all-out in the 8km Binck Banck Tour TT last year. Ended 5th, but Kung aside there were few true TTist there https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/binckbank-tour/2020/stage-4

From what I understand, Mathieu doesn't train specfically for TT's. Unlike Van Aert, who works in wind tunnels to optimize posture etc.

But even if he did, I don't think he would be able to match Wout's bigger engine and ability to sustain an effort anyway.
 
So how do we rank his achievement yesterday among all his other victories this year?

Top three is pretty obvious imo:

3) The Castelfidardo solo for the sheer level of self-destruction

2) The Strade win for how absolutely thermonuclear his accelerations were among a group of elite riders

1) The Mur de Bretagne double for the story, audacity, unexpectedness, level of competition and the yellow jersey.
 
So how do we rank his achievement yesterday among all his other victories this year?

Top three is pretty obvious imo:

3) The Castelfidardo solo for the sheer level of self-destruction

2) The Strade win for how absolutely thermonuclear his accelerations were among a group of elite riders

1) The Mur de Bretagne double for the story, audacity, unexpectedness, level of competition and the yellow jersey.
Agreed. His other wins at Tirreno and Suisse (and UAE I believe?) were good but not that sensational. I would rate Castelfidardo higher than Strade just for the sheer entertainment, but Strade was probably more impressive performance-wise.
 
In other words, you have no arguments to back-up your opinion. No surprise there. As far as you "having" to do anything on a random forum on the internet; of course you don't. One has to wonder though what you think the point is of a forum where opinions are publicly shared, challenged, and discussed...
I other words, I have no desire to "argue" with some rando. If your purpose for being here is to "argue,"then bark up another tree, Fido.
 
Btw, has he ever really tried his best in a time trial? A shorter, full gas effort should suit him given his CX skills, right?

I'm not saying he should try and keep yellow, on stage 5, lol. But I would be curious to see how close he could get to Van Aert's all rounder abilities if he suddenly decided to focus on road cycling.
I think he went all-out in the 8km Binck Banck Tour TT last year. Ended 5th, but Kung aside there were few true TTist there https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/binckbank-tour/2020/stage-4

From what I understand, Mathieu doesn't train specfically for TT's. Unlike Van Aert, who works in wind tunnels to optimize posture etc.

But even if he did, I don't think he would be able to match Wout's bigger engine and ability to sustain an effort anyway.
He was GC leader in 2019 in the OVO ETB so i think he did go full gas there. It was a 14k ITT and he lost almost 1s/km on Affini (who was not nearly at the level he's been this year). I think short TT's should suit him. Longer ones less so. Compared to Van Aert, we know Wout puts out the bigger numbers and Wout has a history of (both in CX, TT's and mountain stages) to perform better in longer sustained efforts. I also think Mathieu is less aerodynamically built than Van Aert. He has very broad and straight shoulders (not unlike Kruijswijk), where as Van Aert has a somewhat hunched natural position.

But Mathieu has never really trained on TT'ing so any further analysis is kind of moot. I do think he could vastly improve, perhaps even become a real threat for the current top ITT'ers in shorter (sub 20k) ITT's. I don't think he'd ever really be a treat on long ones though.
 
In other words, you have no arguments to back-up your opinion. No surprise there. As far as you "having" to do anything on a random forum on the internet; of course you don't. One has to wonder though what you think the point is of a forum where opinions are publicly shared, challenged, and discussed...
For your edification: Opinions regarding inconsequential topics, such as how one perceives the emotional and psychologial traits of another person, are derived of personal observation filtered through judgments of personal preference. It's completely subjective, and thus poor topic for "arguments." I argue for a living, so I generally avoid subjective arguments with emotional randos who want to prove that I can't have the personal opinion I have developed...because I think those people are a**holes, and aren't worth the typing. WIth that, I'm done, Fido.
 
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For your edification: Opinions regarding inconsequential topics, such as how one perceives the emotional and psychologial traits of another person, are derived of personal observation filtered through judgments of personal preference. It's completely subjective, and thus poor topic for "arguments." I argue for a living, so I generally avoid subjective arguments with emotional randos who want to prove that I can't have the personal opinion I have developed...because I think those people are a**holes, and aren't worth the typing. WIth that, I'm done, Fido.
All of that mumbo jumbo just to prove my point. No argument. Kthnxbye. Even quoted me twice. Ouch. Obviously hit a nerve.
 
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He was GC leader in 2019 in the OVO ETB so i think he did go full gas there. It was a 14k ITT and he lost almost 1s/km on Affini (who was not nearly at the level he's been this year). I think short TT's should suit him. Longer ones less so. Compared to Van Aert, we know Wout puts out the bigger numbers and Wout has a history of (both in CX, TT's and mountain stages) to perform better in longer sustained efforts. I also think Mathieu is less aerodynamically built than Van Aert. He has very broad and straight shoulders (not unlike Kruijswijk), where as Van Aert has a somewhat hunched natural position.

But Mathieu has never really trained on TT'ing so any further analysis is kind of moot. I do think he could vastly improve, perhaps even become a real threat for the current top ITT'ers in shorter (sub 20k) ITT's. I don't think he'd ever really be a treat on long ones though.
In 2019 I read an interview with him and he said that his TT suffers because he would rather go ride trails than sit on a TT bike.
 
I think he went all-out in the 8km Binck Banck Tour TT last year. Ended 5th, but Kung aside there were few true TTist there https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/binckbank-tour/2020/stage-4

From what I understand, Mathieu doesn't train specfically for TT's. Unlike Van Aert, who works in wind tunnels to optimize posture etc.

But even if he did, I don't think he would be able to match Wout's bigger engine and ability to sustain an effort anyway.
if he optimized aero he could do well, but indeed, not nearly as well as Wout. Like not even close.
 
What puzzles me, is that Van Aert is the better bunch sprinter and the better climber in general. And yet Van der Poel has all the explosive puncheur victories, which one would expect to be some kind of middle terrain between sprinting and climbing. Similarly, Van Aert is the better time trialist on almost any terrain, yet it's Van der Poel who grabs the dazzling solo wins. We can explain the latter through character - I suppose Van der Poel is more of a gambler. But how to explain that first difference?
 
What puzzles me, is that Van Aert is the better bunch sprinter and the better climber in general. And yet Van der Poel has all the explosive puncheur victories, which one would expect to be some kind of middle terrain between sprinting and climbing. Similarly, Van Aert is the better time trialist on almost any terrain, yet it's Van der Poel who grabs the dazzling solo wins. We can explain the latter through character - I suppose Van der Poel is more of a gambler. But how to explain that first difference?
IT's pretty easy to explain though.

All those efforts Wout is good at is longer extreme efforts. Long climbs, TT's... constant effort. Even mass sprints are a more constant effort, because the speed is high for 2/3km and then requires another acceleration on top. He can keep that higher speed longer than most sprinters (and Vd Poel) which explains his sprinting power.

Short hills, or sprints at lower speeds (tour of flanders head vs head), require explosivity. Van der Poel is simply better at that. You can watch all the CX races they did together as well, even on flat parts, VD Poel oftne outright dropped Van Aert straightaway with his acceleration. Only for Van Aert to haul him back with a long effort. But in uphill short efforts, even with WvA on absolute a-game, he cannot follow a-game Vd Poels acceleration. It's a world of difference.

It's very simply short violent effort vs long hard effort.
 
IT's pretty easy to explain though.

All those efforts Wout is good at is longer extreme efforts. Long climbs, TT's... constant effort. Even mass sprints are a more constant effort, because the speed is high for 2/3km and then requires another acceleration on top. He can keep that higher speed longer than most sprinters (and Vd Poel) which explains his sprinting power.

Short hills, or sprints at lower speeds (tour of flanders head vs head), require explosivity. Van der Poel is simply better at that. You can watch all the CX races they did together as well, even on flat parts, VD Poel oftne outright dropped Van Aert straightaway with his acceleration. Only for Van Aert to haul him back with a long effort. But in uphill short efforts, even with WvA on absolute a-game, he cannot follow a-game Vd Poels acceleration. It's a world of difference.

It's very simply short violent effort vs long hard effort.
Aside from all of the personality stuff that seems to have riled someone, this is spot-on.
 
Another interesting difference between Wout and Mathieu seems to be their mental prowess.

Van Aert appears stronger mentally in the sense that he can endure suffering even in losing position. I've rarely ever seen him give up, even in the fight for a second or third place.

On the other hand, once Van der Poel has lost hope of victory, his willingness to suffer takes a huge nose dive. Partly explains why his bad days can appear shockingly bad. Yet when he smells blood, he can push himself to unhealthy levels of suffering.

if both have a bad day, count on Van Aert to be more reliable. On a good day though, Van der Poel will shine more brightly.

another way of putting it: Van Aert will collect more PCS points, but the top 10 most incredible wins will all be VdP's.
 
Another interesting difference between Wout and Mathieu seems to be their mental prowess.

Van Aert appears stronger mentally in the sense that he can endure suffering even in losing position. I've rarely ever seen him give up, even in the fight for a second or third place.

On the other hand, once Van der Poel has lost hope of victory, his willingness to suffer takes a huge nose dive. Partly explains why his bad days can appear shockingly bad. Yet when he smells blood, he can push himself to unhealthy levels of suffering.

if both have a bad day, count on Van Aert to be more reliable. On a good day though, Van der Poel will shine more brightly.

another way of putting it: Van Aert will collect more PCS points, but the top 10 most incredible wins will all be VdP's.
I disagree. I saw Van Aert suffer mental fatigue a couple of times during cyclocross season, when he was chasing MVDP...sure, MVDP might be more succptible to the syndrome, but WvA isn't immune, particularly when he's behind MVDP.
 
In addition to Dekker's post, Mathieu is technically a more skilled rider, but Van Aert is better at positioning. First stage TDF, Mathieu was -again- too far back. Same thing often happens with bunch sprints. It was the same story in San Remo this year, too far back on the Poggio.

Another interesting difference between Wout and Mathieu seems to be their mental prowess.

Van Aert appears stronger mentally in the sense that he can endure suffering even in losing position. I've rarely ever seen him give up, even in the fight for a second or third place.

On the other hand, once Van der Poel has lost hope of victory, his willingness to suffer takes a huge nose dive. Partly explains why his bad days can appear shockingly bad. Yet when he smells blood, he can push himself to unhealthy levels of suffering.

if both have a bad day, count on Van Aert to be more reliable. On a good day though, Van der Poel will shine more brightly.

another way of putting it: Van Aert will collect more PCS points, but the top 10 most incredible wins will all be VdP's.
There is some truth to what you are saying, but you are exaggerating. Wout is mentally very strong, but Mathieu has grown stronger the past 2 years imho. Also, yes, Mathieu will pull off the more crazy solo's, but that's also because of his team being 100% about him. But also i think Wout's Strade solo would be in their "10 most incredible wins". And i'm sure there will be others.

I disagree. I saw Van Aert suffer mental fatigue a couple of times during cyclocross season, when he was chasing MVDP...sure, MVDP might be more succptible to the syndrome, but WvA isn't immune, particularly when he's behind MVDP.
I basically see every CX race that gets aired, the only example i can think of is the CX WCC, where Wout indeed acknowledged to have "let it go" after his puncture.
 

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