The non-dopers

[TheEnoculator]

So I'm relatively new to cycling (been following the sport for 6 years, riding/racing for 5 years), and I have learned not to be naive about doping in cycling. But as scarce as they are, there are still a handful who can be trusted for not doping. So who are these riders who are generally trusted as non-dopers?

I have heard Moncoutie and Casar are generally trusted riders, even if not 100%. What makes them more trustworthy than others?

 

[hiero2]

You'll get argument from someone for anybody you pick, I think.

I would believe that a consensus of reasonable fans and forumites, and not just of clinic regulars, would tell us that Garmin can be trusted to be clean. Cadel is probably the single biggest rider who most believe to be clean. Personally, it seems to me that most of the current new crop of youngsters are probably riding clean - Pinot, TJ, Phinney, Stetina, etc (sorry, I know the American names better). Sagan would not be on the list.

The Clinic regulars are pretty rabid. While I am glad of their suspicions and opinions, I often find they are happier believing the worst. Of course, sometimes, the worst is the truth. But, meanwhile, I prefer to follow a more moderate path in my opinions. Quite a few in the clinic believe that once guilty, always guilty. I am of the opinion that some things can change.

Oh - also, I have to believe that most of the peloton is relatively clean these days. At least this seems so for the last couple years. Even recently, when LA came out of retirement and Alberto got popped, I think things were a lot cleaner than they had been even 5 years earlier. Not clean yet, but we've seen more and more riders getting popped. Every time that happens and sticks, the risk goes up for the remaining peloton. Whenever the risk goes up, the usage will drop.

 

[Bicycle]

The slow ones

 

[Maxiton]

The slow ones

Hahahaha. That sums it up nicely.

 

[hrotha]

We have a pretty extensive thread on Moncoutié.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=13082

 

[x0einstein0x]

I think this is really hard to say and you can't be 100% certain about anybody. Most of the opinions is probably based on rumors spread by fellow riders and/or friends.

I've known some of the German riders for quite some time and I'm pretty sure that Gerald Ciolek (Omega Pharma) and Robert Wagner (Radioshack) are racing clean. Moreover, I've got some faith in the German Argos Shimano riders, like Froehlinger, Geschke, and the likes. Some say Linus Gerdemann is clean as well but then again he used to work with Ceccini in 2006.

In 2007 there was an anonymous pro rider writing on the German Cycling4fans forums (German speaking crowd click here). He mentioned a couple of guys as having a clean reputation, i.e:
Jérôme Pineau (Omega Pharma), Pierrick Fédrigo (FDJ), Sandy Casar (FDJ), Thomas Löfkvist (Sky), Christian Knees (Sky), David Moncoutié, ...

Btw quite a few very talented young Germans quit in the last couple of years before their careers even really started (Dominik Roels, Milram, probably being the most important example). I suppose that's partly because of the playground not being level for them.

 

[Red Lobster]

If you are talking about a high level of confidence, I reckon it would be a very short list indeed.

If you are talking about guys who it seems there is a reasonable chance they are riding clean, then it might be possible to come up with a decent list.

I'm now adding Larsson to that second list, at least.

 

[Benotti69]

I think now is the wrong time to be looking for clean riders in the pro peloton.

After what we have learned about the UCI, it is virtually impossible to believe who is clean and who is not.

Stand back from the riders and look at the teams.

Nearly all have a link to doping, some stronger than others but all have links from riders to doctors to DS admitted doping.

Also look at what the opinion is coming out of the pro peloton about Armstrong/UCI and that tells us the true story of the peloton.

There has been a lot of talk that cycling is cleaner, but the peloton is not speaking like people who race clean and condem doping.

So if you want to follow riders because you believe/hope they are clean, goodluck, but expect to be disappointed at some stage in the future unless the whole system is changed within pro cycling.

 

[Netserk]

You'll get argument from someone for anybody you pick, I think.

I would believe that a consensus of reasonable fans and forumites, and not just of clinic regulars, would tell us that Garmin can be trusted to be clean. Cadel is probably the single biggest rider who most believe to be clean. Personally, it seems to me that most of the current new crop of youngsters are probably riding clean - Pinot, TJ, Phinney, Stetina, etc (sorry, I know the American names better). Sagan would not be on the list.

The Clinic regulars are pretty rabid. While I am glad of their suspicions and opinions, I often find they are happier believing the worst. Of course, sometimes, the worst is the truth. But, meanwhile, I prefer to follow a more moderate path in my opinions. Quite a few in the clinic believe that once guilty, always guilty. I am of the opinion that some things can change.

Oh - also, I have to believe that most of the peloton is relatively clean these days. At least this seems so for the last couple years. Even recently, when LA came out of retirement and Alberto got popped, I think things were a lot cleaner than they had been even 5 years earlier. Not clean yet, but we've seen more and more riders getting popped. Every time that happens and sticks, the risk goes up for the remaining peloton. Whenever the risk goes up, the usage will drop.

Let me guess, Sagan has been involved in numerous doping stories, right?
He is no way more suspicious than the others.

@the_red: Why is Cadel seen as clean?? Because he speaks English? I would call him more suspicious than Andy and Purito.

@the_blue: A look on the Tour this year tells me 1999/1996

 

[Arnout]

Isn't it also accepted that the new, post-ban Basso is at least believable in his numbers, results and riding?

 

[eyemgh]

I want to believe Jens is clean.

M

 

[TheEnoculator]

Well, I don't ride in the pro peleton, so I don't know anything about riders' reputations. I only learn from the clinic, the news articles and chatting with other fellow riders in my city. I don't know any WorldTour rider personally.

I also think about how often do they speak out against doping. Wiggo used to be outspoken, not anymore (it's funny that in Wiggo's last article he said he'd never dope because he would risk losing everything. But to me, that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't risk it if he was so close to winning the Tour, especially when you know the current testing methods can be beaten). LA and Contador never spoke out against doping. I guess the post-ban Millar is OK.

 

[luckyboy]

Moncoutie is the only guy I have 100% trust in.
Not to say that I'm unsure about everyone, just that I can't be bothered trawling through the peloton.

I trust Vaughters/Garmin more now than I used to, and FDJ I think are the cleanest team.

 

[maltiv]

Let me guess, Sagan has been involved in numerous doping stories, right?
He is no way more suspicious than the others.

That's not what he's saying though. If this thread had been about "who has never been involved in a doping story", the list would be very extensive. It's about riders who have a strong and clear anti-doping stance and also deliver believable performances. With Sagan one sometimes wonder if he isn't too good to be true, and I haven't heard him speaking out about doping either.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Lars Boom is hopefully on the clean list. The guy got a zero on 2010's Index of Suspicion list.

On the one hand, Jens is a fan favorite, including me, for lots of good reasons. He aggressively attacks and takes long odds on his attacks without regret, he is selfless and appears humble in interviews.

On the other, the guy's team choices dooms him to probably lots more than guilt by association.

He can be both at the same time.

The other way to make this list is finding the riders who got in the ProTour then went back to regional racing because of the doping. I realize this is an almost impossible task to do reliably, but that list is going to be long.

 

[Benotti69]

I want to believe Jens is clean.

M

I hate to break the news. But not a hope in hell.

 

[User Guide]

Cunego, he has basically admitted he used to dop[e then had a change of heart.
His results,times fell off the edge of a cliff that corresponded with the change.
Clean now yes but with a history.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Cunego had a history, but he has more or less been as blatant about stating it as he can be without getting himself in trouble ("the Damiano who won the Giro no longer exists")...

Moncoutié is the guy most people would say is #1 on the list of people they'd put their hands in the fire for. I like my chances with Pierrick Fedrigo too. I have hopes for Hernâni Broco given how he was shunted to the outside for not conforming at Liberty Seguros continental. Marco Pinotti is another who has spoken out a lot even when not asked, so obviously would have the most to lose had he not been being honest, which is a good sign for him.

 

[hrotha]

With Mantova pending, I'd wait before saying anything about Cunego. His quotes have been interpreted in a positive light, but perhaps they had little to do with a change of heart.

 

[eyemgh]

I hate to break the news. But not a hope in hell.

I think guilt by association is the strongest argument against, but by that logic, Bassons is guilty too.

The reason I believe Jens could be clean is that his very strong efforts are well timed and infrequent. I haven't looked at his power levels, but to me what distinguishes the obvious dopers from the possibly clean, but very strong riders are two things, how quickly they recover as measured indirectly by how frequently they make maximal efforts and how much they actually suffer in the process of an attack.

I may be naive, but I believe you could throw a clean rider with Lemond's numbers at his peak into the middle of the Lance years, the peak of doping if you will, and he'd be noticed, not a GC contender, but a rider with results not dissimilar to Jens.

If you have proof otherwise, I'll listen, but it'll bring me down.

M

P.S. I believe Sastre was clean too with the possible exception of his final TT in the tour he won. I also believe Basso, Cunego and Leipheimer are now clean.

 

[Maxiton]

I think guilt by association is the strongest argument against, but by that logic, Bassons is guilty too.

The reason I believe Jens could be clean is that his very strong efforts are well timed and infrequent. I haven't looked at his power levels, but to me what distinguishes the obvious dopers from the possibly clean, but very strong riders are two things, how quickly they recover as measured indirectly by how frequently they make maximal efforts and how much they actually suffer in the process of an attack.

I may be naive, but I believe you could throw a clean rider with Lemond's numbers at his peak into the middle of the Lance years, the peak of doping if you will, and he'd be noticed, not a GC contender, but a rider with results not dissimilar to Jens.

If you have proof otherwise, I'll listen, but it'll bring me down.

M

P.S. I believe Sastre was clean too with the possible exception of his final TT in the tour he won. I also believe Basso, Cunego and Leipheimer are now clean.

IMO, Leipheimer and Voigt are too old to be in the peloton outside the autobus.

EDIT: Riding clean, I mean. Same goes for Horner. By the time you reach 38, 39, 40, good results and leading performances should be few and far between - minor races - for all but the rarest of exceptions. Again, IMO.

 

[Benotti69]

I think guilt by association is the strongest argument against, but by that logic, Bassons is guilty too.

The reason I believe Jens could be clean is that his very strong efforts are well timed and infrequent. I haven't looked at his power levels, but to me what distinguishes the obvious dopers from the possibly clean, but very strong riders are two things, how quickly they recover as measured indirectly by how frequently they make maximal efforts and how much they actually suffer in the process of an attack.

I may be naive, but I believe you could throw a clean rider with Lemond's numbers at his peak into the middle of the Lance years, the peak of doping if you will, and he'd be noticed, not a GC contender, but a rider with results not dissimilar to Jens.

If you have proof otherwise, I'll listen, but it'll bring me down.

M

P.S. I believe Sastre was clean too with the possible exception of his final TT in the tour he won. I also believe Basso, Cunego and Leipheimer are now clean.

Jens rides for Bruyneel. Landis stated that when he was riding for Bruyneel all the TdF riders were on a program and had to be. Schleck got busted this year. Voigt had a good TdF for a 41 year old. Voigt just won a stage on a lone breakaway at USPro Challenge.

Jorge Jaschke talked about Voigt and epo in an article. Cant find it right now.

Voigt rode through the epo era and rode well.

It is can be depressing when guys who seem nice and likeable dope but that is the sport.

Nope he didn't test positive for anything. But neither did Ullrich, Valverde, Basso etc...

 

[eyemgh]

IMO, Leipheimer and Voigt are too old to be in the peloton outside the autobus.

EDIT: Riding clean, I mean. Same goes for Horner. By the time you reach 38, 39, 40, good results and leading performances should be few and far between - minor races - for all but the rarest of exceptions. Again, IMO.

Jens finished 2 hours down last year. That's the type of result I'm talking about, dosed (no pun intended), impactful efforts, with recovery between, resulting in a middle of the pack GC result.

I don't believe Levi was clean until he fell off the face of the earth this year. Even then it's debatable. Something has changed other than being a year older.

As much as I hate it, there's NO WAY Horner is clean now even though I believe he was before his second soiree into Europe.

M

 

[eyemgh]

Nope he didn't test positive for anything.

That is a statement that sadly may no longer have any true meaning.

I hear ya. He's a nice guy though.

I'm certain that's why Indurain has been left alone. He was humble and he basically disappeared.

I'd sure love to hear Jaschke now. He was screwed harder than most when the omerta was iron clad.

M

 

[Maxiton]

Jens finished 2 hours down last year. That's the type of result I'm talking about, dosed (no pun intended), impactful efforts, with recovery between, resulting in a middle of the pack GC result.

I don't believe Levi was clean until he fell off the face of the earth this year. Even then it's debatable. Something has changed other than being a year older.

As much as I hate it, there's NO WAY Horner is clean now even though I believe he was before his second soiree into Europe.

M

I hate to say it, but where a domestique finishes has no bearing on his level of dopage. I like Jens, I'm a fan of Jens, but Jens is a professional. He's been a professional, a leading one, since the time when doping of one kind or another was off the hook in the peloton. Just because he's a doper doesn't mean he's a bad guy, or less enjoyable to watch. But he is almost without doubt a doper.