The notorious doping doctors thread

[skimazk]

LEINDERS Geert J. L.
specialism
general Medicine
recognition
General medical, holder of a certificate of additional training + EKG to 100%

 

[skimazk]

Dr. Geert Leinders graduated as a physician at the University of Leiden. He holds post-graduate in youth health care and sports medicine at the University of Ghent. For fifteen years he has worked as a team physician. first for the teams from Sigma, histor, Panasonic and Lotto. Then from the beginning of the Rabobank Cycling Plan in 1996 working as team doctor of the Dutch professional team, with a particular focus on training and mental coaching.

author of 2 books:

big engines
http://www.wielersportboeken.nl/boek.php?boekid=1405

up a notch (liberal translation)
http://www.wielersportboeken.nl/boek.php?boekid=1246

 

[Netserk]

Hilarious book titles

 

[D-Queued]

Yes indeed.

No mention of Allen Lim, of TdF 2006 fame.

Allen Lim & Conconi = PhD; =/= MD

However, let's not lose sight of Arnie Baker, MD. He should toggle high on the notorious scale.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Dr. Geert Leinders graduated as a physician at the University of Leiden. He holds post-graduate in youth health care and sports medicine at the University of Ghent. For fifteen years he has worked as a team physician. first for the teams from Sigma, histor, Panasonic and Lotto. Then from the beginning of the Rabobank Cycling Plan in 1996 working as team doctor of the Dutch professional team, with a particular focus on training and mental coaching.

author of 2 books:

big engines
http://www.wielersportboeken.nl/boek.php?boekid=1405

up a notch (liberal translation)
http://www.wielersportboeken.nl/boek.php?boekid=1246

Thanks did not know ll that... and yes hilarious book titles!

Have you read them? Does he touch on doping?

Worked at Panasonic!!!!

Oh and youth health care?!!! F.you.****ting.me?

 

[frenchfry]

Allen Lim & Conconi = PhD; =/= MD

However, let's not lose sight of Arnie Baker, MD. He should toggle high on the notorious scale.

Dave.

Arnie Baker for some comic relief.

 

[webbie146]

Dr. Geert Leinders graduated as a physician at the University of Leiden. He holds post-graduate in youth health care and sports medicine at the University of Ghent. For fifteen years he has worked as a team physician. first for the teams from Sigma, histor, Panasonic and Lotto. Then from the beginning of the Rabobank Cycling Plan in 1996 working as team doctor of the Dutch professional team, with a particular focus on training and mental coaching.

author of 2 books:

big engines
http://www.wielersportboeken.nl/boek.php?boekid=1405

up a notch (liberal translation)
http://www.wielersportboeken.nl/boek.php?boekid=1246

That's cool graduated in Leiden, that's 10 minutes from where I live

 

[Granville57]

Jeff only is bad in dumping needles.

No...no...I think he was quite good at it

It was a trolling thread - but now has the potential to turn in to an interesting thread after a Mod gutted the OPs post.

You'd think he could've at least corrected the spelling while he was at it.

 

[Alpechraxler]

This is the classic example of what happens if you have no idea about the topic. You are posting bs.

If everyone was as careful, humble and empathic, nobody would be getting caught. (Un)fortunately most athlets are greedy and fall for even greedier trainers/consultants/managers.

You came up with this greedy character. There must be a slight difference between dealing with epo and training plans from dottore ferrari. That's not the same league.

 

[Franklin]

This thread only becomes interesting if it's about doctors currently involved in cycling. Here's one of the best examples of a team doctor who has been involved in one of the higher profile cases and yet doesn't dissappear:

Dr. Menuet. => Sojasun.

As long as medical personel like him are allowed in the sport it won't get any better. And yeah, he's just one of many.

 

[lllludo]

A few docs named in the ADD report. Surprisingly just 2 mentions of Cecchini but a good one on page 34
"(talking with Bo Hamburger about EPO) According to Alex Pedersen, Riis was mad and said,"Ceccho (Cecchini) told you not to take this *** out of Italy"

I am suprised because confessed dopers like Millar, Hamilton, Dekker and probably others all said Cecchini was not involved in doping practices. And in the ADD according to Pedersen he was advising CSC's riders blood doping. That's something new...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

When you say "Ceccho told you not to take this *** out of Italy", do you mean take to be remove, or inject?
ie
"Ceccho told you not to transport this *** out of Italy" OR
"Ceccho told you not to use this *** out of Italy"

Coz transporting advice for something is not how to administer it or when to take it yeah?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

When you say "Ceccho told you not to take this *** out of Italy", do you mean take to be remove, or inject?
ie
"Ceccho told you not to transport this *** out of Italy" OR
"Ceccho told you not to use this *** out of Italy"

Coz transporting advice for something is not how to administer it or when to take it yeah?

i'd reckon, it would be moving the medicines across borders, even with EU laws, cycling livery or brands on bus, or van, red rag to a bull or gendarmes. seems unnecessarily risky

 

[Bronstein]

Joost de Maeseneer, formerly at CSC and now at Astana working with the flag bearer. On page 75 of the ADD report:

The study group believes, however, based on the conducted interviews proved that Team CSC's doctors since its inception in 1998, both known to and contributed to doping use on the team, including by disregarding the rules governing the use of cortisone and by monitoring EPO abuse with their own hematocrit measurements. The former Team CSC- and current Astana doctor Joost de Maeseneer has in 2012 publicly denied having contributed to doping. However, it is a fact that at Team CSC as the other team was a standard practice for internal hematocrit values right up to the introduction of the internal testing program under the Bispebjerg Hospital in December 2006, when measurements of riders' blood values, etc. was boosted in the System. When Michael Rasmussen in 2002 in internal control was measured with high value in relation to the UCI limit of 50, he was pulled out of the race under the guise of an injury, as discussed earlier in this report.

 

[blackcat]

Joost de Maeseneer, formerly at CSC and now at Astana working with the flag bearer. On page 75 of the ADD report:

The study group believes, however, based on the conducted interviews proved that Team CSC's doctors since its inception in 1998, both known to and contributed to doping use on the team, including by disregarding the rules governing the use of cortisone and by monitoring EPO abuse with their own hematocrit measurements. The former Team CSC- and current Astana doctor Joost de Maeseneer has in 2012 publicly denied having contributed to doping. However, it is a fact that at Team CSC as the other team was a standard practice for internal hematocrit values right up to the introduction of the internal testing program under the Bispebjerg Hospital in December 2006, when measurements of riders' blood values, etc. was boosted in the System. When Michael Rasmussen in 2002 in internal control was measured with high value in relation to the UCI limit of 50, he was pulled out of the race under the guise of an injury, as discussed earlier in this report.

yes, so the internal testing by Dr Rasmus Damsgaard was just bs, and JV obviously knows how this goes down, and how many have been popped besides the ~7 or so at the 2007 TdF on myocera that the UCI managed to cover up? what is that I hear you say? no positives at CSC? Why dont you say! sheeeit. Clay Davis gif!

 

[lllludo]

Re:

When you say "Ceccho told you not to take this *** out of Italy", do you mean take to be remove, or inject?
ie
"Ceccho told you not to transport this *** out of Italy" OR
"Ceccho told you not to use this *** out of Italy"
Coz transporting advice for something is not how to administer it or when to take it yeah?

It says "du ikke skal tage det lort med ud af Italien" and my Danish is just good enough to order a beer ;-)
Any help ? (according to the context it's more likely inject. Hamburger was fearing a positive because he had been controlled just after an EPO injection so likely Riis was upset because Bo didn't respect the doping protocol)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

When you say "Ceccho told you not to take this *** out of Italy", do you mean take to be remove, or inject?
ie
"Ceccho told you not to transport this *** out of Italy" OR
"Ceccho told you not to use this *** out of Italy"
Coz transporting advice for something is not how to administer it or when to take it yeah?

It says "du ikke skal tage det lort med ud af Italien" and my Danish is just good enough to order a beer ;-)
Any help ? (according to the context it's more likely inject. Hamburger was fearing a positive because he had been controlled just after an EPO injection so likely Riis was upset because Bo didn't respect the doping protocol)

Ah gotcha. Sounds like doping advice then, definitely. My Danish is non-existent, no speaking or reading at all.

Here's the salient excerpts, pages 266/7 Racing in the Dark.

 

[sniper]

deleted

 

[blackcat]

Millar Time is the numero uno for the Clinic. we luv him here.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

When you say "Ceccho told you not to take this *** out of Italy", do you mean take to be remove, or inject?
ie
"Ceccho told you not to transport this *** out of Italy" OR
"Ceccho told you not to use this *** out of Italy"
Coz transporting advice for something is not how to administer it or when to take it yeah?

It says "du ikke skal tage det lort med ud af Italien" and my Danish is just good enough to order a beer ;-)
Any help ? (according to the context it's more likely inject. Hamburger was fearing a positive because he had been controlled just after an EPO injection so likely Riis was upset because Bo didn't respect the doping protocol)

I'll help out...

It says in the report that:

Alex Pedersen har fortalt undersøgelsesgruppen, at han sad i bil med Bjarne Riis den dag (den 19. april 2001), hvor Hamburger blev dopingkontrolleret og derfor overhørte en opringning fra Hamburger til Riis, hvor Hamburger fortalte, at der havde været uanmeldt kontrol på hotellet i Liege, hvor holdets ryttere boede. Kontrollen fandt sted efter, at Bjarne Riis og Alex Pedersen torsdag morgen var kørt for i bil at transportere Laurent Jalabert til dennes første løb i Holland efter sit uheld tidligere på året.

Short translation:

Alex petersen told the commission he was in a car with Riis when Hamburger called and told of an unannounced doping-control at the hotel in Liege...

Da Alex Pedersen og Bjarne Riis kom tilbage til hotellet, hev Bo Hamburger Riis og Pedersen til side, var nervøs og sagde, at han havde taget noget om morgenen. Bjarne Riis blev ifølge Alex Pedersen gal og sagde: ”Ceccho (Cecchini) har jo sagt, du ikke skal tage det lo rt med ud af Italien” . Alex Pedersen opfattede Riis' udtalelse som en påmindelse til Hamburger om at undlade at medbringe EPO og tage det umiddelbart op til løbene.

Short translation:


When Alex and Riis came back to the hotel Hamburger pulled them aside -told them that he had taken "something" in the morning thus he was nervous...

According to Alex -Riis got angry and said: Ceccho has told you not to bring that *** out of Italy....!

Alex interpreted Riis reaction as a reminder to Hamburger not to bring EPO or take it immediatly before races...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So in conclusion Hamburger was nervous because he got tested at a moment he could test positive.
Riis then got mad because apparently the doctors orders where not to transport or take this substance (apparently epo) outsside homeland (italy)...

So Riis knew what Ceccho told his riders (thus it was a program orchestraded and controlled by Riis through his doctors?)

In my opinion Riis was trying to be careful and riders not follwing protocol was getting him riled up..

It's kind of the same reason Riis wouldn't touch Rasmussen after his ban, and the same reason he had no issues throwing Basso or Hamburger to the wolves...

It somehow strenghtens the argument that Riis was the great orhestrator and people not following his rules where easier to ostracize...

I think his moral code was that doing it within his rules was okay... But step aside and he will see you in a different light... Not that far of Armstrong "philosiphy" perhaps?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It was Riis' team - he owned the license. Lots of incentive then to keep things on the down low. And you'd hire doctors to help with that. Or a Sysmex 1200. Or all three.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

A few docs named in the ADD report. Surprisingly just 2 mentions of Cecchini but a good one on page 34
"(talking with Bo Hamburger about EPO) According to Alex Pedersen, Riis was mad and said,"Ceccho (Cecchini) told you not to take this **** out of Italy"

I am suprised because confessed dopers like Millar, Hamilton, Dekker and probably others all said Cecchini was not involved in doping practices. And in the ADD according to Pedersen he was advising CSC's riders blood doping. That's something new...

Thinking back to Tyler's book, I'm fairly sure he said that Checchini's method was to get the rider very light and to keep the doping as simple as possible, in both variety and quantity.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

A few docs named in the ADD report. Surprisingly just 2 mentions of Cecchini but a good one on page 34
"(talking with Bo Hamburger about EPO) According to Alex Pedersen, Riis was mad and said,"Ceccho (Cecchini) told you not to take this **** out of Italy"

I am suprised because confessed dopers like Millar, Hamilton, Dekker and probably others all said Cecchini was not involved in doping practices. And in the ADD according to Pedersen he was advising CSC's riders blood doping. That's something new...

Thinking back to Tyler's book, I'm fairly sure he said that Checchini's method was to get the rider very light and to keep the doping as simple as possible, in both variety and quantity.

Yep

 

[Labomba]

Re: Re:

When you say "Ceccho told you not to take this *** out of Italy", do you mean take to be remove, or inject?
ie
"Ceccho told you not to transport this *** out of Italy" OR
"Ceccho told you not to use this *** out of Italy"
Coz transporting advice for something is not how to administer it or when to take it yeah?

It says "du ikke skal tage det lort med ud af Italien" and my Danish is just good enough to order a beer ;-)
Any help ? (according to the context it's more likely inject. Hamburger was fearing a positive because he had been controlled just after an EPO injection so likely Riis was upset because Bo didn't respect the doping protocol)

The meaning is: "Only use the EPO when you are in Italy" (don't bring it out of Italy and use it there)

 

[neineinei]

Bo Hamburger had been using EPO, frequently and in large dosages, from 1995 to 1998. After the Festina scandal he and his CASINO team mates were interogated by the French police. This scared him, and he cut down on the EPO. The 50% htc rule also restricted his EPO use.

Laurant Jalabert was meant to be CSCs captain for the 2001 spring classics, but he fell off a ladder and got injured, and Riis makes Hamburger captain instead. Riis tells him: "Now it is on your shoulders, and you know what you'll have to do". Hamburger understands it as an order to dope. According to Hamburger Riis knew he'd cut back on the EPO, but Riis didn't know the details about when and how much he used. He also says he'd probably have used some EPO for the spring classics even if Riis hadn't encouraged him to do so. Then the testers comes to his hotel the day after Fleche Wallone and he gets tested. He calls Riis and is upset, worried he's glowing as he's taken something in the morning, and when Riis and Alex Pedersen meets Hamburger, Riis, according to Pedersen, gets angry and says: ”Ceccho (Cecchini) har jo sagt, du ikke skal tage det lort med ud af Italien”. Riis denies having had a conversation with Hamburger about not bringing EPO to races, as he didn't know Hamburger was using EPO.