The official CBS 60 minutes thread

[ChrisE]

Wow, Chris E.! Nice job on the transcript of the letter.

If I'm not mistaken there is a HUGE lie hiding in there. Previously Fat Pat claimed there was NO WAY to hide an AAF because it was reported to WADA. But the letter says that practice only began in 2004, three years after the 2001 TdS. So it would be a lot easier to sweep the dirt under the carpet.

Heck, I bet they just pinned the AAF on some other rider...

Yeah, but no smoking gun for the swordsman inre to the TdS.

From the way it reads the attachment was just the rider codes, and somebody "added" the dates of the tests. Hmmm.

Funny the letter only addresses EPO, and not the other stuff cyclists are known to take.

 

[python]

OK, here's my contribution to the doping fight and the UCI issue.

Tyler Hamilton told 60 Minutes that Lance told him he tested positive for EPO at the 2001 Tour de Suisse.

Lance's lawyer gave 60 Minutes a letter from the UCI stating, and they showed it in text:

"None of the samples reported positive...belong to Mr. Lance Armstrong".

Obviously that statement means that there were positive tests. You could look to see if any positive tests were reported, but I doubt it, because last year the UCI offered up this gem to the world:



http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cyclin...ory?id=5218887

So, the possible out is that there were multiple positive tests for something other than EPO, but the UCI still contradicts themselves in writing. Maybe people with a big screen TV got a better look at the letter?

theswordsman, this swiss positive was discussed in one of the threads about a year ago. iirc, myself and several others advanced an idea that the alleged positive was an inconclusive a-sample test.

the 60 minutes seems to confirm the idea when they referred to the usada letter pointing to a suspicious test consistent with epo. the inconclusive or suspicious simply means (i am speculating here) that the scientific threshold for a positive (80% bap at that time) may not have been reached or just barely crossed. (for a backgrounder recall this was the first year the epo test was introduced and there was no wada technical guidance yet obligatory now. only 3 labs then could test for epo and the general mood was that of caution as with anything brand new).

so, what we are likely seeing is the uci spin. of cause they did not have the record of a full aaf becase the a-sample was hushed.

 

[Allen H]

Wouldn't you find it hard to finger for a "crime" a friend in that situation, i know i would.

Remember, we're talking about people that used to be seriously close friend here. I'd try to protect those i know best as much as i could in his position.

I think TH has a lot more credibility in the interview for being reluctant to finger Lance, and always saying "but I did it too" on anything Pelley got him to admit Lance did.

It's almost heartbreaking to hear Tyler describe these guys who were clean, had given their life up 'til then to cycling, and get to the point where they're told, "you could make the TdF squad, but you need to do this". Almost anyone in that position who's still only 21, 22, 23 years old (and thinks they'll live forever) would do it - because they've already sacrificed nearly everything in their life to get to that point - they're so close to their ultimate goal (and they've probably figured out at this point, "everyone else is doing it", too).

 

[tubularglue]

me thinks,

goodbye http://www.usacycling.org/

weisel and partners of old

 

[theswordsman]

theswordsman, this swiss positive was discussed in one of the threads about a year ago. iirc, myself and several others advanced an idea that the alleged positive was an inconclusive a-sample test.

the 60 minutes seems to confirm the idea when they referred to the usada letter pointing to a suspicious test consistent with epo. the inconclusive or suspicious simply means (i am speculating here) that the scientific threshold for a positive (80% bap at that time) may not have been reached or just barely crossed. (for a backgrounder recall this was the first year the epo test was introduced and there was no wada technical guidance yet obligatory now. only 3 labs then could test for epo and the general mood was that of caution as with anything brand new).

so, what we are likely seeing is the uci spin. of cause they did not have the record of a full aaf becase the a-sample was hushed.

Right, I saw the part about the USADA letter, but the part they flashed on the screen made it appear there were multiple positive tests at the 2001 Tour de Suisse.

I saw a Spanish book excerpt the other day that wasn't very clear in translation, but made it seem like he had been offered a back door deal, but he refused because he wanted to prove his innocence.

Watching the show tonight, it got me wondering again about the 2007 Tour de France samples the UCI refused to turn over to the French police, and the case was finally dropped. The dopers had signed the Rider's Agreement, and the UCI expected them to pay a year's salary. Not Vino, because he retired at the time, but they put bills up on their website for the other two guys. So, you're the UCI, and the French police want positive samples so they can prosecute a couple of guys who you expect to give you large sums of money.

Their chances of coming up with the cash would be severely hampered in French prison. When Vino came back, they tried to get something like 750,000 Euros from him, but he beat them at CAS. But Cristian Moreni voluntarily handed over a year's salary at the end of 2009, even though a quick search doesn't find him riding for a pro team after that. What did he get for his year's salary?

http://www.sudouest.fr/2011/05/05/p...dopage-du-tour-de-france-2007-389885-4344.php

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2007-tour-de-france-doping-case-dismissed-in-france

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI3/layout.asp?MenuId=MTI1NDg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/moreni-upbeat-about-paying-fine

 

[Big Doopie]

$25000 was paid to make the 2001 positive go away.

what was the $100000 paid three years later -- presumably before the olympics in 2004 and therefore before WADA would have to be informed of any positive.

remember that verdruggen and the uci dragged their feet until after the 2004 Tour (they were the last sport) to sign on to the wada and just squeezed into the olympics in time.

funny that they waited all that time, ensuring the fraud's attempt at the tour record (and huge sca bonus!) would go unhindered by wada.

remember how good old richard pound said that armstrong had then suddenly decided not to ride the olympics because he thought wada would catch him.

so what was the $100000 for -- four more failed tests? to pay the uci to hold off signing the wada charter until after armstrong could cheat his way to a 6th tour? or some combination of the above?

 

[Wallace]

Some of the evidence from the show just seems impossible to deny--I really don't see how Lance can walk away from this. Even if they smear Tyler as a totally unreliable lying cheat (and they will) how can Bruyneel and Armstrong explain meeting with the Swiss lab director? What'll they say about that? That they just liked the guy and wanted to hang out with him? I really can't wait until the trial starts.

 

[tubularglue]

Sylvia Schenk confirmed it was 500,000$ - so i was a little disappointed in the missing hush money reported

I would presume, quite a lot of anonymous donations have been made over the years. Their books must be missing chapters within each fiscal year. Ex. June donation receipts missing year 99,00,01,02,03,04,05 etc.

$25000 was paid to make the 2001 positive go away.

what was the $100000 paid three years later -- presumably before the olympics in 2004 and therefore before WADA would have to be informed of any positive.

remember that verdruggen and the uci dragged their feet until after the 2004 Tour (they were the last sport) to sign on to the wada and just squeezed into the olympics in time.

funny that they waited all that time, ensuring the fraud's attempt at the tour record (and huge sca bonus!) would go unhindered by wada.

remember how good old richard pound said that armstrong had then suddenly decided not to ride the olympics because he thought wada would catch him.

so what was the $100000 for -- four more failed tests? to pay the uci to hold off signing the wada charter until after armstrong could cheat his way to a 6th tour? or some combination of the above?

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

Some of the evidence from the show just seems impossible to deny--I really don't see how Lance can walk away from this. Even if they smear Tyler as a totally unreliable lying cheat (and they will) how can Bruyneel and Armstrong explain meeting with the Swiss lab director? What'll they say about that? That they just liked the guy and wanted to hang out with him? I really can't wait until the trial starts.

Yep, Armstrong is guilty and he knows he is going down this time !!!

 

[Random Direction]

"These statements are emails in which the respective laboratories, where applicable, list all the sample code number corresponding to the adverse analytical findings for EPO that were found by them since EPO became detectable in 2001... None of the samples reported positive by a laboratory since EPO became detectable belongs to Mr. lance Armstrong"

So, did the TDS tests occur prior to EPO becoming detectable in 2011? And then the samples were retested with a positive? (or something similar). weasel language that could technically be correct, but likely is very wrong.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

"These statements are emails in which the respective laboratories, where applicable, list all the sample code number corresponding to the adverse analytical findings for EPO that were found by them since EPO became detectable in 2001... None of the samples reported positive by a laboratory since EPO became detectable belongs to Mr. lance Armstrong"

So, did the TDS tests occur prior to EPO becoming detectable in 2011? And then the samples were retested with a positive? (or something similar). weasel language that could technically be correct, but likely is very wrong.

watch out for the mercenary trolls !

 

[ksmith]

The lab and UCI are both in Switzerland. There's some brown bagging going on, I wonder if the gnomes will be looking to see what went on, to say nothing of the meeting. Must be a bit embarrasing

The lab has got to have some sort of goverment authorisation.

Are the IOC or WADA are going to do something to the UCI?

Stay tuned.

This is going to snowball.....pass the popcorn, I love a good comedy

P.S. The lawsuit against Landis I presume is a dead duck.

 

[Random Direction]

not a troll - was looking at the specific language and inconsistencies in it - hoping that someone with more legal training than I would deconstruct the actual timeframes for the TDS, when the test became detectable and way the UCI framed the langauge. Have no doubt that they are corrupt to the core, so it probably doesn't matter what they say.

 

[tubularglue]

I am sure the director of the Lab knew the dates and the timelines. For a certain $ he might be willing to take visits

 

[flicker]

Scott Pelley is a looker, eh?

 

[Polish]

Scott Pelley is a looker, eh?

Listened to a bit on KCBS radio while driving.
Scott seemed to ask plenty of leading questions.

Scott..."Would you say that..."
Tyler...."um yaa..."
Scott..."Isn't it true that..."
Tyler...."um yaa..."

unprofessional for sure.

Also, Tyler said he started doping at USPostal in 1997.
Before Lance and Johan even showed up at USPostal. Yikes.

Scott let that one go. Back to Lance lol.
"Isn't it true that Lance made you dope?"
"um yaa...."

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Wouldn't you find it hard to finger for a "crime" a friend in that situation, i know i would.

Remember, we're talking about people that used to be seriously close friend here. I'd try to protect those i know best as much as i could in his position.

True, and he did for as long as he could until the Feds came calling...but all that has changed.

Both of you hit it on the nailhead. You could see from the look on Tyler's face during the interview that it was painful for him to finger his old friend. But as Neworld said, the Feds came calling. So when Tyler is staring at the options of (1) fingering an old friend vs. (2) jail time for obstructing justice or what could eventually turn into perjury, he has to open up. The Barry Bonds case (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/04/barry-bonds-verdict-.html) proved what might happen if he were to lie about it.

I think TH has a lot more credibility in the interview for being reluctant to finger Lance, and always saying "but I did it too" on anything Pelley got him to admit Lance did.

It's almost heartbreaking to hear Tyler describe these guys who were clean, had given their life up 'til then to cycling, and get to the point where they're told, "you could make the TdF squad, but you need to do this". Almost anyone in that position who's still only 21, 22, 23 years old (and thinks they'll live forever) would do it - because they've already sacrificed nearly everything in their life to get to that point - they're so close to their ultimate goal (and they've probably figured out at this point, "everyone else is doing it", too).

agree completely.

 

[Deagol]

http://www.pstrategies.com/index.php/contact.htm

"Public Strategies has no geographic limitations. Headquartered in Austin, Texas with offices across the country, our reach is considerable -- 175 employees working around the world."

 

[Epicycle]

Anyone know who the head of the Lausanne lab was in 2001? The current director, Martial Saugy, took over in 2003.

 

[131313]

just one question: has anyone seen my white lunch bag? I'm in desperate need of it right now...

if nothing else comes from this interview, at I'm sure the term "white lunch bag" has just entered the cycling lexicon forever.

 

[D-Queued]

The lab and UCI are both in Switzerland. There's some brown bagging going on, I wonder if the gnomes will be looking to see what went on, to say nothing of the meeting. Must be a bit embarrasing

The lab has got to have some sort of goverment authorisation.

Are the IOC or WADA are going to do something to the UCI?

Stay tuned.

This is going to snowball.....pass the popcorn, I love a good comedy

P.S. The lawsuit against Landis I presume is a dead duck.

I hope not.

If McQuaid and Verbruggen have demonstrated anything, it is that the Emperor does not realize he has no clothes. Pray that they continue.

Why?

Because Landis is going to get really, really rich on the counter-suit.

And, this time I am ok with however much money he receives.

Dave.

 

[webvan]

Excellent program and at last some hard data on the failed 2001 TDS test, well not technically failed since the UCI made sure it was killed in the bud...

Phone rang when Tyler was explaining he basically didn't have a choice not to dope, but did he say if someone had actually told him to do it in so many words?

just one question: has anyone seen my white lunch bag? I'm in desperate need of it right now...

if nothing else comes from this interview, at I'm sure the term "white lunch bag" has just entered the cycling lexicon forever.

aka the "suitcase of courage" (Liggetism)

 

[djconnel]

LeMond has got to be feeling a bit better after all this as well. He lost his bike brand due to his suggestions Lance couldn't be trusted.

 

[Epicycle]

Interesting that in 2001 the Swiss lab was the first lab to catch doping with the new EPO test. Obviously talking to the lab director about the test specifics would put Bruyneel and Armstrong ahead of the rest of the peloton.

 

[D-Queued]

A notable missing element was who the other rider was that was in the hotel room with Tyler in Valencia getting their blood extracted.

Looks to me like they will all sing.

Dave.