The official CBS 60 minutes thread

[thehog]

I've just watched the stream of the video on the CBS website. Interesting to see the Armstrong camp's predictable response: come out with the "I've been tested 500 times" line, and attack the person making the claim. This has been the tactic for a long time now.

First, the "I've been tested hundreds of times so I can't be a doper, can I?" part of it - anyone who follows cycling knows that this is a joke, as the dopers were so far ahead of the testers as to render the testing useless. Bjarne Riis never tested positive, did he? Richard Virenque never tested positive. Johan Museuuw, David Millar, Tony Rominger, Erik Zabel - none of them tested positive (though some of them later admitted doping) but does anyone think they were clean riders? The absense of evidence does not imply evidence of absence.

Second, the Armstrong camp attacks Tyler Hamilton's credibility, trying to suggest that he's only making the claims in order to further himself and gain publicity as he has a book coming out soon. For this claim, we need to examine the opposite side of the coin - sure, it's a fair claim to say that Hamilton may gain some publicity on the back of this, and yes, it may help his book sales, but you also have to ask "what does he stand to lose".

In this case, by admitting to doping, he will lose his entire legacy as a cyclist - his victories, his Olympic gold medal, and his reputation. Now, weigh that up against potentially gaining some book sales and you can quickly see the scales tip. Does it make sense to throw away all those things for the sake of some increased book sales?

No.

The funny thing is you look at it from the angle that Armstrong is telling the truth you get the following:

Hamilton doped alone without USPS or Lance Armstrong knowledge.
He lied about it for years saying he never doped.
Now he is lying again making up that he doped with Armstrong and USPS.
Landis doped and doped alone never with Armstrong or USPS.
He lied for years that he never doped.
He’s lying again saying he doped all his career and doped with Armstrong and USPS.
Armstrong never doped. Even in a era of rampant unrepentant doping.
Armstrong won 7-Tours clean.
USPS were clean team despite dominating the Tour for 7 years straight over teams which had their own programs.
George Hincapie never doped but cannot talk about if he did or not.
Hamilton and Landis are bitter and in search of publicly.
Hincapie is still a good guy.

Then you ask yourself - is this credible?

 

[Ferminal]

I think one of the biggest revelations is that not only did they manage to hide a positive, but they were advised on the specifics of the test by the leading lab at the time.

Level playing field...

 

[thehog]

I think one of the biggest revelations is that not only did they manage to hide a positive, but they were advised on the specifics of the test by the leading lab at the time.

Level playing field...

Poor Jan. Even on a top program he never stood a chance. Well no one did. Knowing what we know now there was going to be no other winner than Armstrong.

Which makes the SCA case even more interesting. In effect Armstrong was betting on himself. If SCA knew that he was winning by deceit (not dope) then they wouldn’t have signed that contract. That’s serious fraud right there.

 

[Anonymous]

This was a bit like going to see a good film based on the trailer.
Then you realise that the best bit was the trailer.

It might be news to Joe Public though.

You're a bit like an Ostrich with your head in the sand.
Because you've got your head in the sand.

 

[AussieGoddess]

You dont see people ratting out guys like Indurain, Ullrich, or Landis.... Contador for that matter. Positive tests are one thing but its obvious that former "friends" of lance hate his guts and want him brought down. How come none of INdurain's ex teamates havent "come out" with allegations. Indurain after all had some incredibly doped rides!!

you wouldn't have seen TH rat him out either - he plainly said that if it wasn't for a positive test he would happily still be riding - and happy to lie and cheat. He also plainly said he has only come clean because he was forced to via subpoena from the grand jury. They asked him to co-operate and he refused .....

I think one of the biggest revelations is that not only did they manage to hide a positive, but they were advised on the specifics of the test by the leading lab at the time.

Level playing field...

yeah - I agree. The collusion with the lab (and the UCI) is a HUGE thing. I need to go back and read the SI peice and the part about Catlin and the lab there .... but there was stuff about them talking to JB as well. Sensing maybe a pattern here ?

 

[Cloxxki]

The funny thing is you look at it from the angle that Armstrong is telling the truth you get the following:

Hamilton doped alone without USPS or Lance Armstrong knowledge.
He lied about it for years saying he never doped.
Now he is lying again making up that he doped with Armstrong and USPS.
Landis doped and doped alone never with Armstrong or USPS.
He lied for years that he never doped.
He’s lying again saying he doped all his career and doped with Armstrong and USPS.
Armstrong never doped. Even in a era of rampant unrepentant doping.
Armstrong won 7-Tours clean.
USPS were clean team despite dominating the Tour for 7 years straight over teams which had their own programs.
George Hincapie never doped but cannot talk about if he did or not.
Hamilton and Landis are bitter and in search of publicly.
Hincapie is still a good guy.

Then you ask yourself - is this credible?

The answer is pretty unanimous : it doesn't matter, because One Chosen Man arose all others, and set for himself to go beyond being the awesomest of champion. He was to - pauze for drama - to in fact start a charity. The first ever athlete to start a charity, if you must know. And for a cause in such dire need for recognition from the public.
It doesn't matter how many athletes and fans you befraud, how many lives you ruin, as long as you make promotion for a disease that is killing innocent patients, making it sound like you're actually making a change where other charities fail to DO something.

Having a cancer charity is better than being catholic. No need to even confess your sins, they are forgiven up front, lies about it serve the purpose of keeping the focus on your divine work.

 

[andy1234]

You're a bit like an Ostrich with your head in the sand.
Because you've got your head in the sand.

Clever stuff.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

IIRC, the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act has been amended post-Salt Lake City to include the IOC. I suspect that would include the governing bodies of IOC affiliated sports like cycling. Armstrong and Co. have really stepped into it this time. This aspect of what CBS came up with is enormous. That the FBI (not the FDA w/Novitsky) took the affidavit of the Swiss lab director is stunning. Armstrong and Co. are going down. I look for Armstrong's camp to quiet down other than to continue beating the never tested positive drum. George Hincapie will be moving to a bunker in the Smokies post-Amgen Tour.

All together now, everyone say, "RICO."

 

[veganrob]

Armstrong obviously had a lot of influence over UCI. His team never had to worry about getting positive. They could have much more aggressive program than any other team. I have always ben sure that he used that influence to have Floyd and Tyler busted. He couldn't stand that they would leave him.
Laso very interesting the Omerta Tyler mentions. Sharing doping secrets etc. They wanted to keep all the doping their own little secret.

The cover is blown now and the fun is just beginning

 

[Cimacoppi49]

The tide has turned very much in Tyler's favor over on his facebook page.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Tyler-Hamilton/51581353533?ref=ts

 

[Berzin]

Armstrong obviously had a lot of influence over UCI. His team never had to worry about getting positive. They could have much more aggressive program than any other team. I have always ben sure that he used that influence to have Floyd and Tyler busted. He couldn't stand that they would leave him.

Yes, it hardly ever mentioned but Armstrong was quite the vindictive little girl towards Landis both at his last Tour (the blood bag flushed down the drain) and then whenever they crossed swords at the Tour of Georgia.

Also, a question-wasn't it Armstrong that made statements about "something going on in Spain" to someone in the UCI?

Does this correspond with the "Operation Puerto" bust or was it before while he was still riding?

 

[thehog]

Yes, it hardly ever mentioned but Armstrong was quite the vindictive little girl towards Landis both at his last Tour (the blood bag flushed down the drain) and then whenever they crossed swords at the Tour of Georgia.

Also, a question-wasn't it Armstrong that made statements about "something going on in Spain" to someone in the UCI?

Does this correspond with the "Operation Puerto" bust or was it before while he was still riding?

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news/2006/jun06/ioc-letter.pdf

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/News-Cen...ard-W-Pound-to-Lance-Armstrongs-Open-Letter1/

 

[GJB123]

Oh the list is much longer than just Hamilton and Landis. Roberto Heras, Alberto Contador and I think if we put our collective heads to it, we could come up with a few more names of riders that have been shamed the minute they left the claws of Armstrong and his buddies.

Regards
GJ

 

[Magic Spanner]

Well I just watched my first ever 60 minutes. I was impressed if you take away the over dramatic pauses and facial expressions in the questions but I guess that's America heh?

The bit I hadn't realised from the discussions on here was that Hamilton was given partial imunity from prosecution and that this will be withdrawn if he is proven to be lieing.

Surely if there were any doubters that fact shuts them up.

There is a logic to lieing about not doping initially and then owning up when forced to tell the truth.

There is no logic to telling the truth about not doping initially and then lieing to say you did when under federal investigation and at risk of prosecution if you are proven to lie.

Game Over

 

[teresa]

39.Just saying....if LA is proven to have doped then there* should be some kind of consequences for sure.
Other* aspects trouble me about this though.........the* journalism is so bad.....they portray and seem to* suggest that G. Hincapie fits in with Landis and* Hamilton in going to the investigators and telling them* LA took drugs. In fact he was subpoenad (spelling??)* and answered questions under oath. Big* difference.
Also I confess not being too knowledgeable* about US criminal investigations but I thought that* testimony was given in secret and was confidential. * So I don't understand how the '60 minutes'* program is allowed to use what was presumably testified* to under those conditions? Who leaked the* information about G. Hincapie 'secret'* testimony??- they should find out - surely that person* has also broken the law?
Is the US system really as* corrupt as it appears to be? I would be very* interested in exactly how many US tax-payers $$$ have* been spent on this never-ending investigation. Surely a* better use would be to assist people in dire straits* from the recession (lost houses, jobs etc) or floods* etc??
Meanwhile - the post Armstrong generation is* looking good - bring on Le Tour!! I am greatly looking* forward to July!

 

[fatandfast]

kind of amazing that big George had nothing to say until the feds interviewed him. Landis went for years based on a consistent history in cycling that he could get away with it. Tyler caught but still kept his medal and now w Novitzky having his huevos in a vise finally he starts talking. McQuaid probably taking all nite tap dance lessons getting himself ready to answer how suspected dirty tests always were followed by "donations" to the UCI.

Since Fignon is dead he can't be rattled but in his book he says he and Greg partied hard together as room mates. Lemond will just write it off as smoking weed or a misunderstanding in a dying man's mind.

Now some lab employees that have nothing to gain are talking about the UCI tossing tests that are bad for the revenue stream.

60 Minutes that had a "where are they now" segment just a short time ago about Muarmmar Gaddafi. How he said he was sorry for downing planes, excepted Israel's right to exist. The people at 60 Minutes made him seem like a quirky, semi humble weirdo staying in touch w his nomad roots by staying in a tent from time to time. What will they do with Lance? Hours of feel good BS about his life and accomplishments.

Armstrong is going to look even more foolish as he goes on using standard stuff like the guy is after me for jealousy or a book deal or just being a hater.
Lance should just say what everybody knew about George, Tyler,Lemond,Fignon,Merckx,Ulrich and everybody else. They used what was available at the time.
Lance will be kicking himself for the hours of self promotion he let CBS film, they specialized for decades in doing really negative stories about fraud and corruption. Good luck Lance

 

[Steel4Ever]

First, the "I've been tested hundreds of times so I can't be a doper, can I?" part of it - anyone who follows cycling knows that this is a joke...

Should make a giant list of non-positive dopers and present it to pharmstrong and ask him how aaaallll those champions who NEVER tested positive turned out to be dirty....except for him.

Second, the Armstrong camp attacks Tyler Hamilton's credibility, trying to suggest that he's only making the claims in order to further himself and gain publicity as he has a book coming out soon.

Tyler said it himself -- the only reason he spilled the beans was because he was subpoenaed in a grand jury -- under oath! Guess only pharm would have the ball to lie to grand jury. Worked for Marion didn't it?

In this case, by admitting to doping, he will lose his entire legacy as a cyclist - his victories, his Olympic gold medal...

He already gave back his medal even though he said he never doped for that race.

Overall, TH looked and sounded shifty, just my take on it.
However, the person who has REALLY shaken things up...Georgie boy!
Should be interesting!

 

[sniper]

Well I just watched my first ever 60 minutes. I was impressed if you take away the over dramatic pauses and facial expressions in the questions but I guess that's America heh?

The bit I hadn't realised from the discussions on here was that Hamilton was given partial imunity from prosecution and that this will be withdrawn if he is proven to be lieing.

Surely if there were any doubters that fact shuts them up.

There is a logic to lieing about not doping initially and then owning up when forced to tell the truth.

There is no logic to telling the truth about not doping initially and then lieing to say you did when under federal investigation and at risk of prosecution if you are proven to lie.

Game Over

+1. The facial expressions were really Oprah.
But Tyler was really truly sincere and was visibly having trouble to 'stay dry' at times.
For what it's worth, Tyler just came in second (after Floyd) on my list of favorite cycling personalities.

You fully right, btw: first lying and then coming clean makes sense, the other way around doesn't. Only the saddest of fanboys don't understand that.

 

[HL2037]

Tyler looked scared to death. It says a lot about how Lance succesfully has managed to terrorise the people around him. Even after so many years, Tyler is still trembling with fear at the thought of saying something bad about him. Stockholm syndrome is the word that comes to mind.

 

[fatandfast]

giving back the medal makes no sense if he is pulling a Landis. If he didn't cheat in only that race why return the medal? If he earned it keep it .Novitzky has some paperwork that he will shelf if Tyler helps the prosecutor makes more sense. Tyler like all the others what outed by the feds not by any moral compass. How BMC can let George ride and toss Ballan while things get sorted is a double standard. Hindcappie should turn in his license until its over

 

[sniper]

Tyler looked scared to death. It says a lot about how Lance succesfully has managed to terrorise the people around him. Even after so many years, Tyler is still trembling with fear at the thought of saying something bad about him. Stockholm syndrome is the word that comes to mind.

+1.
very true story

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Since Fignon is dead he can't be rattled but in his book he says he and Greg partied hard together as room mates. Lemond will just write it off as smoking weed or a misunderstanding in a dying man's mind.

Another pathetic attempt to attack Lemond. I know it's a difficult and trying time for the Lance chamois-sniffer crowd, but at least try to maintain some semblance of dignity.

Not that I'm not enjoying watching you guys lose it. It's beautiful.

 

[Ferminal]

Should make a giant list of non-positive dopers and present it to pharmstrong and ask him how aaaallll those champions who NEVER tested positive turned out to be dirty....except for him.

Gusev never tested positive.

Maybe these people should have thought about how they would like to be treated, and how much benefit of the doubt they should have been given, when they decided to mess with people's lives.

 

[Magic Spanner]

Should make a giant list of non-positive dopers and present it to pharmstrong and ask him how aaaallll those champions who NEVER tested positive turned out to be dirty....except for him.

Top of the list should be George.

 

[fatandfast]

Another pathetic attempt to attack Lemond. I know it's a difficult and trying time for the Lance chamois-sniffer crowd, but at least try to maintain some semblance of dignity.

Not that I'm not enjoying watching you guys lose it. It's beautiful.

I missed it. Fignon wrote what he wrote. Greg never responded because he didn't have to. My only point and I guess it's a weak one, everybody is guilty. You are of the school that those who are outed are more guilty than those that are never or yet to be discovered. Point then and now, just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean your not guilty.

George and company are probably wondering how he is nabbed for misdeeds he thought he had survived. You should maybe live a little riskier name some riders that you think are clean and watch your theory crumble. I wonder how may guys who raced with Greg are stewing watching him act so righteous..time will tell. You see what holier than thou got for Lance