i am beginning to think the shoulders that bear most of the burden lies in Switzerland.
In the alps, money flows uphill.
some believe, all the way to the top
In the alps, money flows uphill.
some believe, all the way to the top
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Alpe d'Huez said:I do however feel that it's possible Roberto Heras was set-up. Not that he was clean.
He wasn't. But there was an awful lot of heat on Liberty, Saiz, and himself at that time, and the way his tests were revealed, then the fact he was blacklisted from the sport, all just drew up a red flag to me looking back, where someone wanted to get rid of them from cycling.
Then again, it's also quite possible he just used "too much" EPO before that final ITT, and came up positive.
Berzin said:So now the Landis and Hamilton positives were part of some conspiracy.
No. It didn't help that they were away from the US Postal safety net, but they were both doping and have not clearly stated exactly what they were doing to have gotten caught.
All Landis said was that he did not take testosterone, but he obviously took something to make that epic ride possible on stage 17 of the 2006 Tour.
Any excuses like the ones stated above are just a bit too implausible.
hrotha said:Furthermore, hadn't Hamilton been warned beforehand because his values were all over the place? The conspiracy theory makes for an interesting story but overall, with the info we currently have, it doesn't add up.
Merckx index said:Yeah, and according to Howman, calling a rider in and telling him his test results are "suspicious" is “inappropriate”.
.
ansimi said:Fabiani:
"In an investigation characterized by unlawful leaks, it is amazing how quickly the leaker responded to today's `60 Minutes' letter, by reaching out to the AP in Los Angeles, and leaking some more. It is time for the press to stop giving comfort to this lawless form of character assassination and name names. Who is leaking this information? Whoever is doing so is committing a crime and should be investigated for it."
This is the same guy who's been saying over and over that it's a waste of resources to investigate drug trafficking, fraud, and a host of other crimes...but media leaks on the other hand...
Berzin said:So now the Landis and Hamilton positives were part of some conspiracy.
No. It didn't help that they were away from the US Postal safety net, but they were both doping and have not clearly stated exactly what they were doing to have gotten caught.
All Landis said was that he did not take testosterone, but he obviously took something to make that epic ride possible on stage 17 of the 2006 Tour.
Any excuses like the ones stated above are just a bit too implausible.
Hugh Januss said:This just ticks me off every time somebody regurgitates it out. I do not think that there exists a drug that one could take that would make Floyd's stage 17 ride possible by itself.
That ride was made possible by a number of drugs.
Nobody dared chase him for the first 2 hours. What killed him the day before was dehydration and on that day he made sure that he was handed nearly 100 bottles. When they finally did try to chase a little (?) it was far too late.
Was he doped? Oh yes, absolutely. Was that the reason he won stage 17? No, it was not.
Maxiton said:Fixed that for you.
How do you know that? To me, it looked like a classic example of roid rage on the part of Landis at the end of the stage. In fact it was so obvious it was kind of ridiculous. So I wasn't surprised when he was busted for T/E ratio being out of whack.
Hugh Januss said:This just ticks me off every time somebody regurgitates it out. I do not think that there exists a drug that one could take that would make Floyd's stage 17 ride possible by itself.
That ride was made possible by a number of things. Nobody dared chase him for the first 2 hours. What killed him the day before was dehydration and on that day he made sure that he was handed nearly 100 bottles. When they finally did try to chase a little (?) it was far too late.
Was he doped? Oh yes, absolutely. Was that the reason he won stage 17? No, it was not.
thehog said:A lot is hearsay <snip>
reading the article as saugy’s support for landis is incorrect.
python said:i am not aware that any hearsay is based on solid sources. armstrong’s case involving the swiss lab is rather special. we continue to be fed (no pun intended) patchy and incomplete information from the evolving investigation. i have full confidence the 60 minutes story was based on reputable, olid sources and is accurate. but we were given just a taste of the juiciest pieces. so far, as i posted earlier, saugy essentially confirmed high probability of armstrong doping in 2001 tds and the highly suspicious role the uci played in the affair. this is all novi needs to corroborate his other sources. when exactly saugy learned of the suspicious samples identity (he allegedly said in 2002) remains to be confirmed but 2002 sounds plausible to me. if he, or the lab director at the time, confirmed this in a sworn affidavit, i'm happy.
reading the article as saugy’s support for landis is incorrect.
he is simply using the opportunity to speak up in connection with another positive. He is criticising wada’s inflexible application of the screening t/e test by advocating new testing strategies and methods. he based the opinion on the individual differences in testosterone metabolism. You misinterpreted it as supporting one of landis’s ridiculous excuses.
i'm coming around to the same conclusion after giving it a try.rata de sentina said:No one gets "pinned" on their T/E ratio. As a screening test it sucks but otherwise it's irrelevant. You should know that hog being around here for a while. If you have a theory of some sort about Landis and Hamilton then support it with some real evidence, otherwise you're just clouding the issue and giving oxygen to fruitloops.
Maxiton said:Fixed that for you.
How do you know that? To me, it looked like a classic example of roid rage on the part of Landis at the end of the stage. In fact it was so obvious it was kind of ridiculous. So I wasn't surprised when he was busted for T/E ratio being out of whack.
Hugh Januss said:This just ticks me off every time somebody regurgitates it out. I do not think that there exists a drug that one could take that would make Floyd's stage 17 ride possible by itself.
That ride was made possible by a number of things. Nobody dared chase him for the first 2 hours. What killed him the day before was dehydration and on that day he made sure that he was handed nearly 100 bottles. When they finally did try to chase a little (?) it was far too late.
Was he doped? Oh yes, absolutely. Was that the reason he won stage 17? No, it was not.
Scott SoCal said:+1
If you watch the stage Floyd won because other teams would not chase. They thought Floyd would blow up before the final climb and they made a huge tactical error.
Floyd won that day because the collective failure of several DS's. And dope, of course.
Well yes, but the fact that Floyd didn't blow up and was able to recover so quickly from the previous day was most likely due to the "treatments" he received after falling apart the day before. So from that perspective, one could argue that he did "win" the stage because of doping, as I doubt that he'd have been able to recover as quickly and as well as he did without it.Scott SoCal said:+1
If you watch the stage Floyd won because other teams would not chase. They thought Floyd would blow up before the final climb and they made a huge tactical error.
Floyd won that day because the collective failure of several DS's. And dope, of course.
A little off the point, but CN perhaps was on to something with their subheading from that day's stage:patricknd said:i'm kind of curious: have you seen a lot of roid rage?
thehog said:Grrrrr!*
...
You start to understand Floyd's anger when he was aware of certain labs, the UCI and athletes doing deals then he received the treatment he did. You can understand the reason behind his defence - "How can you apply the rules so rigidly now when for the past 10 years you haven't?" - unfortunately for Floyd he couldn't tell the full story back then and his defence just came out as angry.
frenchfry said:Excellent observation.
One thing is clear, the Armstrong camp's press releases aren't meant to be picked apart they are meant to appease the fanboys.
VeloCity said:Well yes, but the fact that Floyd didn't blow up and was able to recover so quickly from the previous day was most likely due to the "treatments" he received after falling apart the day before. So from that perspective, one could argue that he did "win" the stage because of doping, as I doubt that he'd have been able to recover as quickly and as well as he did without it.
Cloxxki said:Back when I still thought Floyd was innocent (still not sure about testosterone) I figured that the bonk in fact SAVED his legs for the next day. He didn't get to finish strong, he got to ride easy, by lack of more energy. Bonks don't make you tired, they just make you enjoy your next meal better. And, the next day you're fitter than the ones who didn't donk.
I'd like to note that although it was a magnicent ride (stage 17), Sastre was in fact climbing faster than Floyd. So, Floyd was tired from the soloing.
If a lab can negotiate a bad sample away for someone, they can also contaminate it.
sniper said:key stuff right there.
Not sure why some posters seem to believe that the anti-doping lab could have fixed LA's sample but could not have toyed with Floyd's.
sniper said:key stuff right there.
Not sure why some posters seem to believe that the anti-doping lab could have fixed LA's sample but could not have toyed with Floyd's.
alanshearer said:But still, the best explanations for T in Floyd's sample are:
1. Floyd took it along with all the other stuff he admits too, bur for some reason, didn't realize it. (Cross contamination, Lim didn't tell him, etc.)
2. Floyd took it knowlingly and hasn't come clean about that yet.
3. Aotologous transflusion from a time where there was T.
No need for any conspiracy to get there.
alanshearer said:
D-Queued said:Groan.
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