The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[alberto.legstrong]

AC was NOT in yellow on the cobbles. Which is the end of the discussion

WHAAAATTTT???? And did the mj have 3 flats on the cobbles or not???? And what did Saxo do? Attack?

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with that, AS should know better how to use his drivetrain.

The guy has a lot to learn...

 

[Scoot1430]

A true champion would have

Of course he should have waited or at least not taken part in the Menchov's and Sanchez's efforts. AND even just get Vinokourov to help Andy in the descent.

Alberto will never be a legend or the best. Ullrich, while he only won one tour still showed he had class because whether or not he waited he didn't attack and to me that's what legends are made out of. You either win it under fair circumstances or you be a man and lose like a champion. If Andy doesn't break him in the upcoming days....This will be his last Tour victory. Hopefully he welcomes 2nd place from now on because it's the Andy era

31 seconds for Alberto in a time trial is easy...I mean last year he beat Cancellara and I'm pretty sure his middle name is time trial. The fact is Alberto is no longer the best climber and he knows he can't break Andy so when there was a mechanical problem he figured that's the best to cracking he'll get.

Andy's better and all he did was anger Andy and I totally expect Andy to keep attacking. So much that Alberto won't be able to keep up. Schleck's an angry man now and that should scare anyone.

 

[Barrus]

Joe Papp is on fire with his twitter with this Andy and Alberto thing, really great comments:

Why doesn't someone just argue that Contador should have given Schleck his bike?

If you want to be ****ed off for someone, shed a tear or two for @nicholasroche who was betrayed by his team today. #tdf #intrigue

Oh btw, for anyone bemoaning new posters in this topic, blame cyclingnews as they put a link to the forum on their news items concerning this incident

 

[Gcraenen]

OK y'all. You've got to realize there is a big difference between BAD LUCK such as a flat tyre or a dog running in front of your wheel, and an ERROR commited by the rider, such as a shifting error. Andy Schleck commited an error, as such, noone can be expected to wait for him while the race is "on".

 

[Anonymous]

Wow! You got that almost right. Even Speeway has crawled out from under his rock. He's had to wait almost 3 weeks.

No, there is another positive.
Tomorrow's stage is going to be a b*tch to control. Forget the final 60kms: straight up the Peyresourde and bang!
Saxo get to plan what the want to do, instead of being stuck on the front.
Probably, the same for Thursday. The whole race dynamic may have changed and it isn't all in Contador's favour.
I wonder what wacky tactics we have in store, next?

IMO Schleck looked the stronger, if he isn't wasted, then maybe Speedway will get another reason to find his way out into the light?

I agree actually. Though I think Contador would have covered today regardless, I also think Andy is stronger right now in the mountains. Can he gain enough to make up for his TT? Fortunately, we are going to get to watch and see.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

It's about not beating the strongest rider in a 3 week race because of a single mechanical moment. That's the point of the unwritten code.

wasn't a mechanical. it was operator error.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So now that I've dispatched the myth that Alberto would've caught Andy, let's take a look at the notion that this was rider error.

<snipped for brevity>.

As I posted earlier the stage did not end on the mountain - so even if* Andy had a gap he would have lost it all on the descent.

*And due to Vino having closed the gap and AC being right behind - that attack was not enough to displace AC.

 

[The Crusher]

So?

Was the finish line on top of the mountain.....no.

The amount of time Andy lost with his chain was what he lost on the stage, approx 40 secs. They would have finished with each other.

It's not that simple. This is part of the tactical sense of making an attack at a time like this: to isolate your opponents.

If no mechanical, Andy leads Alberto over the top, and Alberto is alone with no descending help. From what I've heard, Andy can descend at least as well as Alberto. So Andy ends up gaining time on the descent as well as the climb, or at worst, breaks even on the descent. Andy would've picked up 25 seconds or more.

 

[ianclark]

No it's not. They get the point. It's a RACE. Not an etiquette contest. Where your skirt somewhere else.

Yes it's a race. Stuff happens. That's all good. But AC refused to MAN UP by simply admitting that he saw what happened and pounced. How come some professional athletes are so macho in the race but such WIMPS when it comes to telling it like it is?

 

[Rupert]

1 "g" zero knots

While I am pulling for Andy Schleck, I don't believe it is entirely fair to harshly judge AC on a snap decision made in the heat of battle with incomplete information. While it would have been a grand gesture for Alberto to wait, he didn't have the lucury of thinking about it over several minutes or hours after viewing video replays of the action multiple times. In my past life, that is referred to as the difference between making a decision at "1 g, zero knots" versus one made at "6 g, 500 knots." You really can't compare. The old "armchair quarterback" idea.

 

[US Patent Exploding Cyclist]

To everyone that is comparing what happened today to Stage 3. You are comparing Apples and Oranges. It is expected to have some mechanical issues on a Stage like Stage 3. Chavanel had numerous issues, and that was unlucky, but again mechanicals were expected.

A dropped chain on the final climb of Stage 15 is TOTALLY different.

I don't think AC had to wait, it's a race. I would have had a lot of respect for him had he waited and showed a tremendous amount of sportsmanship. A hard earned win is more satisfying than a gifted one.

 

[sartoris]

Look closely here, guys:

http://www.rtve.es/mediateca/videos/20100719/averia-andy-schleck-bales/833011.shtml

You'll see how there's no way for AC to realize what happended to AS. He was attacking like mad and overtook the Yellow Jersey.

AS's bike "bumps" at 11" mark. AC overtakes him at full speed at 14"mark.

Honestly. Does anyone think, after watching this carefully, that in 3" time AC had time to realize what happened?
And, even in the strange situation that he did, how could he possibly stop and wait for him while all the other rivals swished by?

 

[Bala Verde]

Fact of the matter is that Andy did not take enough time on Contador in the previous mountain stages to eliminate chance, such as 'mechanicals' (like punctures, jammed derailleurs, rubbing brakes, broken spokes), self inficted damage, such as mis-shifting, ending up in a ditch, bad descending and missing a corner and what not.

He actually conceded approximately 1m to Menchov and Sanchez in important TdF stages.

If this happens in the upcoming TT, no one would complain about the rider's actions, but just call it what it is:

"Bad luck"

Andy is motivated to the bone now... Perhaps that's what he needed to distance himself from his main rivals.

 

[Anonymous]

Having finally seen it my two pennorth worth

1) Andy schleck needs to learn how to change gear properly
2) It was not a mechanical, it was what they would call in F1 "driver error"
3) It took andy a full ten seconds to even slow down and look at his chain
4) it took him more than 30 seconds to put the chain on after fannying around trying to put it on slack with it on the small chainring

I could have recognised the problem, stopped and fixed it quicker than the 40 seconds it took him. And it was kind of a basic error to start with.

Should contador have stopped, I dont think he had to and I have no problem with him not stopping, it wasnt a puncture, a failed part etc, it was rider error.

However, had he stopped he probably would have got serious karma for it. Similar to a few years ago in a football (soccer) match when the goalkeeper was down and the corner came in, paulo di canio caught the ball and gave it to the ref. He was within his rights to score, but decided to be sporting. AC could have been sporting. That said, if he had, i still think he would have attacked andy further up the hill and kicked his ****.

Andy made a mistake, AC was within his rights to carry on. But seriously, baby schleck needs to learn how to put a chain on. Interestingly both Roche and Hayles or whoever was in the eurosport studio said Andy was crap at putting a chain back on.

one thing i will say, is why is it, on a climb if a leader punctures, has a mechanical its considered polite to wait, but on the cobbles its anything goes.

 

[Piratical]

Well in retrospect I'm kind of glad Contador was a bit of a *** today. Sure ramps up the intrigue for the next few stages . . . I mean, if this had not happened, we would have watched a benign "same time" finish by the AC/AS, with handshakes and politeness all around. Yawn.

 

[TahoeNL]

Joe Papp is on fire with his twitter with this Andy and Alberto thing, really great comments:

Oh btw, for anyone bemoaning new posters in this topic, blame cyclingnews as they put a link to the forum on their news items concerning this incident

That brilliant... quoting Joe Papp's tweets! Who cares what Joe thinks?

 

[roundabout]

*And due to Vino having closed the gap and AC being right behind - that attack was not enough to displace AC.

You don't know that. I thought Schleck had more of gap than in all of his attacks with the exception of stage 8.

 

[The Crusher]

Look closely here, guys:

http://www.rtve.es/mediateca/videos/20100719/averia-andy-schleck-bales/833011.shtml

You'll see how there's no way for AC to realize what happended to AS. He was attacking like mad and overtook the Yellow Jersey.

AS's bike "bumps" at 11" mark. AC overtakes him at full speed at 14"mark.

Honestly. Does anyone think, after watching this carefully, that in 3" time AC had time to realize what happened?
And, even in the strange situation that he did, how could he possibly stop and wait for him while all the other rivals swished by?

Nope.

That was Vino, NOT Alberto. Alberto was farther behind. But don't worry, lots of us made that mistake at first. Just go back a few dozen pages, and catch up.

 

[Anonymous]

That brilliant... quoting Joe Papp's tweets! Who cares what Joe thinks?

I am interesting in what joe thinks, same as i am interested in what any cycling fan thinks. Whatever has happened in your life does not effect you having a valid opinion.

I also agree with Joe on Nic Roche.. he got shafted big time today. Theres a target for sky

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's not that simple. This is part of the tactical sense of making an attack at a time like this: to isolate your opponents.

If no mechanical, Andy leads Alberto over the top, and Alberto is alone with no descending help. From what I've heard, Andy can descend at least as well as Alberto. So Andy ends up gaining time on the descent as well as the climb, or at worst, breaks even on the descent. Andy would've picked up 25 seconds or more.

Ok - look again at the video - AC is not even in the shot when AS attacks. Yet when we get a view from the front he is almost on Vinos wheel.

This wasnt a TT - it was a race and AC had that move covered. I think AS is better in the mountains atm - but AC is well able to cover every move.

If no mechanical - they finish in the same time.

 

[cxgentry]

Jan had class, Fabian has slowed the peleton when other team's MJ had trouble, AC acted without class and respect. He did not break the rules but he should be given no sympathy in the future if he has trouble, leave him on the side of the road.

He can say what he wants but we as cycling fans watch 5 hrs of group riding (racing) to watch 15 minutes of the teams and racers fight to win or put time on each other. He took that away from us as fans. We want legs, lungs, and brains to determine winners not chains and tires ( were not car racing). If he doesn't understand that then shame on him, maybe Indurain can sit him down and explain it to him.

 

[Barrus]

That brilliant... quoting Joe Papp's tweets! Who cares what Joe thinks?

Quite a lot of people on this forum, especially Joe Papp himself
Perhaps he'll come into this thread as well, although I doubt that

 

[Anonymous]

Jan had class, Fabian has slowed the peleton when other team's MJ had trouble

No, fabian slowed the peloton because frank was up facaes creek without a paddle

 

[Hugh Januss]

That brilliant... quoting Joe Papp's tweets! Who cares what Joe thinks?

Who cares what you think about Joe Papp (or anything else really)?