The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[etymology]

whew! that was a LOT of reading. my chinese owned $0.02 u.s. treasurey bill's worth:

lacking a camera fixed on andy's chain, i cannot ascertain if it was a bad shift on the front chainrings, too much pedal pressure while shifting, or the combination of a shift while hitting the bump that lifted schlecklette's wheel off the ground that caused young andy to drop his chain.

the only one who knows what contador saw or did not see as he flew by andy is contador. i have no reason to doubt his explanation of what happened and what he, sanchez, and menchov did.

it is not alberto's "fault" that andy did not take more time before today. it is not alberto's fault that andy did not, would not, or could not attack during yesterday's trackstand stage. it is not alberto's "fault" that andy was isolated.

it *is* alberto's "fault" he was back in the pack and either caught napping or boxed in when schlecklette attacked...that's bike racing. vino covered the attack. when alberto did respond, whooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeee, he was flying in short order.

andy, isolated, waits until km from the top of the climb to attack.

guess he wasn't kidding yesterday when he said today he will be "all in."

anyways: i get the tradition of not attacking the yellow jersey under certain conditions, i understand sportsmanship. but really: at some point, ya gotta start racing. sometimes, stuff happens. when stuff happens at a critical point late in a race...well, the object of any competion is to WIN. if that can be done in a genteel and good sporting fashion, well, that is all fine and well. however, the time comes when ya gotta poop or get off the pot. andy waited a bit too long to get off the pot. as fate would have it...he got burned.

a few more thoughts on today's stage:

1. i've been reading this forum for years. i did not register until sometime during this years most excellent giro, which was emperical evidence that real grand tour bike racing is not yet dead. i registered because i was dying to jump into one of the more passionate ****ing matches. i wrote my scathing post...hit preview post, read it again...and wisely decided that while yeah, i did have something to say, i was more interested in addding fuel to the fire than expressing whatever it was i have forgotten about. i love this forum and the sometimes weeeeeeeeee too ummmmm..."passionate" back and forth. now, in person, i am no shrinking violet...i'd be trading sharp edged barbs and doing my best to argue why *i* (and everyone who agrees with me) am right and the know-nothings who disagree are wrong.

for reasons that escape me, i am quite adept at restraining my opinionated self in a forum. another way of putting it is "it's easy to be a a good sport when i write."

that said, and no offense intended: i can only imagine comments had contador waited for andy: "told you this stage was going to suck!" "told you it should have been a mountaintop finish!" "crimeny, what a great stage it could have been if only those last 25km had been chopped off!!"

2. i think sram should join forces with apple to invent the i-phone4 electronic shifting system.

3. everyone *except* me has missed THE story of the day: i am sure everyone remembers that just yesterday, andy told frank to call their mom to tell her he (andy) would be very careful to not take any risks on descents.
welllllllllllllllllllllll....alberto may be an unsporting, cut throat opportunist who thought nothing of taking advantage of young andy's bad luck BUT...he didn't lie to his mother.

bad andy. baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad andy!

apologies to all for the length of and tangents contained in this post. if i could ride and race a bike the way i can prattle on...i'd be the undisputed KING of pro cycling.

 

[Anonymous]

Andy was stopped for 40 seconds, and finished 40 seconds behind contador.
What that shows is that Schleck is incapable of making up any time on AC on a climb and descent. So its all irrelevant.
Im bored with this thread now. Its done. get over it. Its not worth 150 pages

 

[nicholaaaas]

To be honest, i Blame cancellara. If he was any sort of teammate he would have gone to the front and made everyone slow down and wait for andy.

lol..........................

 

[sartoris]

MELODRAMA LESSONS. PART 18:

Contador missed a tremendous opportunity to gain eternal respect..

Snif

If he had dismounted next to Andy, that image would have made him a hero

Snif

For me, Andy Schleck has won the Tour in my heart.

Snif


And ... last but not least (I knew this was coming mate, sorry!!!)

[But Cadel Evans as well, riding with a broken elbow.]

 

[richwagmn]

Be still, my children - for I have arrived.

Just kidding.

I don't begrudge anyone their opinion, but I know what I think. Schleck committed what Dim correctly described as a "driver error" and since it didn't result in his ending-up splayed out on the tarmac, play on!

Now if Saxo hadn't attacked the MJ on the cobbles when he had clear mechanical troubles on stage 3, I'd be more up for the argument that Contador was somehow unsporting. But the fact is that firstly, on stage 2, Saxo manhandled the bunch into a go-slow to allow both Schlecks to get back on. Not content with that, on stage 3 they launched a go-fast when they knew that contenders like Contador - and the MJ Chavanel - were suffering mechanical issues or being delayed by crashes on the cobbles.

I suspect that if they'd been descending and Andy had ridden himself into a guardrail, Contador probably would have soft-pedaled long enough to give Schleck a chance to get back on. But for reasons stated ad nauseam, that didn't happen. And I'm fine with it.

And much like Vino's attacking, the fact that this controversy is taking place at all makes the race more interesting and exciting to watch. I can't wait for tomorrow's stage.

One of the most thoughtful comments in this thread so far.

 

[Dedelou]

Of course, the difference is you're not losing 35 seconds from being boxed in, but you're losing something like that whilst putting your chain back on. Attacking the MJ while he is in a ditch / flatted / mechanical is just low class.

you are intitled to your opinion but don't expect your argument to win much convert. This is a bike rece not Camelot. Poor bike handling loose race that is why they give you training camps when you are a junior. Andy is young he will have time to learn to ride better. He is strong so he has time to take revenge. But today he has to go and hide in Versus Car . Probably as they are feeling in need of a new champion to make into a martyr they will be delighted to cuddle him

 

[2wheels]

Yeah, I'm done posting on this one. I think the fairest solution would be for 39 roadside female fans-- one for every second of time gained-- to "distract" Alberto tomorrow like this one did at the end of Stage 10. Do it for Andy!

http://twitpic.com/25abai

Everybody wins, nobody gets hurt.

 

[checked]

so professional bike racing is, when your number 1 rival ****ed up...errrrr.... dropped his chain coz of aaa..... amaturish gear shifting during his attack on the last climb and the most critical part of the stage, you are to stop and wait? Then, both of you should cross the finish line holding hands and should be singing ... "we are the world"?

 

[skiguy01]

Last time I checked, Le Tour is a race, mechanicals happen, was it classless for contador not to wait, no not at all, in the 90 tour lemond flatted, the chiappucci group put the hammer down and Lemond chased back, Side seat drivers can say all they want about waiting not waiting, they are still side seat drivers, the strongest and smartest man in this tour will win it, as long as he doesn't have a mechanical or a crash at an inopportune time. It's all a part of racing, things happen.

 

[nicholaaaas]

I don't want my sandwich to be nice! I want it to taste goood.

i want my sandwich to be both!

 

[richwagmn]

From AC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOJLuePexs

 

[Dedelou]

And why is that amazing?

ah.. to be amazed again. I do miss those days when i was innocent and life was simpler. You know the days when you rode your oponent to the ground

 

[Ninety5rpm]

The following discussion is from the poll thread and probably belongs here:

It was AC's move, not Menchov or Sanchez, they were just following AC. The acceleration of AC happened after he saw that AS was having trouble and was nearly stopped in the middle of the road. He saw the problem and then attacked, claiming otherwise is a complete lie, not even a misunderstanding, a lie.

Incorrect. You can clearly see at :04 in this clip that Schleck has no problem yet and AC is already attacking. At this point he had moved from the back of the group (where he was when AS initiated his attack) to the front of the group. AS is still standing. AC is at the far left of the image. At :06 you can see AC is out in front of this group, separated from AS only by Vino. Schleck's gears slip 3 second later, at :09. Can't see AC at that moment, but undoubtedly he had already closed significantly on AS. At :12 Vino blows by AS and AC's wheel enters the frame from the right. At :13, a mere 4 seconds after AS's gear slipped, AC passes him.

To say that The acceleration of AC happened after he saw that AS was having trouble and was nearly stopped in the middle of the road is a lie.

This is what I see as well. In addition, Contador goes around a bend in the road and AS moves out of view very soon thereafter. Contador looks around a lot, so I cannot tell what he saw, but the first time I see that he looks back is when Andy S is not in view.

Also note this: In the first frame of that clip you can see AS in the first few moments of his attack, already gapping the group. A few frames later, still at 0:00, you can see Vino reacting while AC is behind Vino and others messing with something in his jersey back pockets since he's riding hands free. At :02 Vino is making progress, while AC is still "no hands".

At :09, you can also see Vino look back, presumably to make sure AC is okay and following, before AS slows and looks down at his gears. At this point Vino is about three bike lengths behind AS. Apparently satisfied by whatever he sees behind, Vino continues with his acceleration and passes the now-slowing AS at :12.

So, here is what we have:

:00 AS is attacking
:00 Vino reacting; AC is "busy" messing with something in his pockets
:02 Vino accelerating to catch AS; AC still busy
:04 AC is done messing around and commences his acceleration.
:06 AC is making quick progress, separated from AS only by Vino
:09 Vino looks back
:09 AS suddenly slows and looks down, presumably when his chain slips off
:12 Vino blows by AS on AS's right and AC has already nearly caught them as his wheel enters the frame.
:13 AC passes AS on AS's left


Clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9OR-Pz2Yk

 

[Anonymous]

I knew 4 seconds after the rear wheel jumped, because that's when Liggett/Sherwin said "Oh what's happened, his chain's off", before Contador passed Schleck.

...and I am sure that Contador had P&P blasting in the earpiece...

 

[Dedelou]

Not defending Schleck but attacking Contador. Do you not see the difference?

yes the difference is clear and you made your point: you don't like winner and have a liking for whinners

 

[nicholaaaas]

The disscusion that you ppl have here is stupid... there is alot of childish post and comments... ppl who see the video and is still keeping and idiotic opinion... you ppl don't want to see the truth...

Well I have my truth you have your truth... whatever... the history at the end will be the same... AC is going to kill Andy in La Col du Tourmalet and then in the TT... 39 seconds??? pffff don't make me laugh... you ppl say that AS is stronger cuz he is the only one who has attacked... but we still have not seen an ALL IN attack from AC... we are going to see that attack in Le Tourmalet so just sit and wait to see how AC is going to gap BIG TIME AS in the Tourmalet and then in the TT...

Here is a little video from El Pistolero giving his look about what happened today...

I'm not too happy about how El Pistolero got La Maillot Jaune but He hasn't lost my respect and admiration... this is racing and should be merciless... should be an unwritten rule called:

NO GIFTS NOT MATTER WHAT!

we did see one "all in attack" and AS could do nothing

 

[Ninety5rpm]

...and I am sure that Contador had P&P blasting in the earpiece...

Four seconds after Schleck's wheel popped up Contador was already passing Schleck. See my previous post.

 

[Anonymous]

yes the difference is clear and you made your point: you don't like winner and have a liking for whinners

I also know for a fact that he loves cancer...

 

[Steel4Ever]

Schleck is supposed to be a professional cyclist (ie. getting paid money to ride a bicycle). This would imply that he should know how to operate said piece of machinery/equipment.

Snapping a chain or ripping off a deraileur because your legs are applying massive torque is a "mechanical". Dropping a chain because you don't know how to change gears properly is amateurish.

Same goes for any "professional" rider who crashes a corner because they clip their pedal (ie. learn to ride a bike, pharmboy).

 

[Anonymous]

Four seconds after Schleck's wheel popped up Contador was already passing Schleck. See my previous post.

I know. I already knew that AC was flying up after him...from the back of the pack.

 

[LeonG2010]

Protocol?

I knew 4 seconds after the rear wheel jumped, because that's when Liggett/Sherwin said "Oh what's happened, his chain's off", before Contador passed Schleck.

Indeed, but neither you nor they were in the heat of the race as professional cyclists attacking each other to gain a supreme advantage. It is time some of you here were more objective in your evaluations. Some of the worst comments have come from Eurosport - and even worse those commentators still cannot stop themselves from allusions to Vino's suspension each time he makes a manoeuvre. When I watch the TdF now in the absence of Canal TV with a much superior French commentary, I have turned the sound down. The English alternative, apart form Sean Kelly, is way below standard. The main commentator often fails to comprehend tactics. Contador was under attack all the way up the last climb by a Saxo-Bank team clearly out to distance him at some point. I doubt if anyone around Andy really knew what was going on until later. The hypocrisy gets worse when you consider Chavanel had the yellow jersey on the cobblestones and in spite of two punctures & other problems, nobody waited for him. This "unwritten rule" is nothing more than a myth. It is an act of graciousness used by some cyclists at certain times but most usually it is not used at all. The Chavanel case is one among many incidents of this nature throughout professional cycling in more than just the TdF.

It is time for Andy to prove he is worthy of the yellow jersey in Paris - playing psychological poker with AC is not good enough with a time-trial imminent. End of stage talk is insufficient. Do your talking on the bicycle. The gauntlet is down. You have done no one, except your team-mates, any favours - they not need to give you any in return. You have two stages left to make your move. Make it!

 

[nicholaaaas]

Contador missed a tremendous opportunity to gain eternal respect. If he
had dismounted next to Andy, that image would have made him a hero
in the way that both Armstrong and Ulrich gained respect by waiting for
each other in two Tours several years ago.

But he did not. In fact, he was pulling his group on several occasions.
If he wins the Tour, it will make him a small champion,
with a lower case "c".

For me, Andy Schleck has won the Tour in my heart. [But Cadel Evans as well,
riding with a broken elbow.] It does not matter what happens from here on.
I have seen the true colours of Contador, Menchov and Sanchez.

Actually let's be honest... yes Lance waited for Jan. but in 03 Lance and Mayo went down right in front of Jan. he almost came to a stop... and literally had to put every ounce of force into getting himself going again... then Hamliton and the rest of the field caught him. Lance said back then. look at the tape he was cleary attacking when i went down. Lance is a douche. He said back in the day he "gave" Marco that stage... but yesterday or the day before he says: "i didn't give gifts back in my day"

sorry for the sidebar

 

[scribe]

Yes, but there are quite a few whose love for him makes them hate what he hates and he hates Alberto. Did I really need to spell that out for you?

Not really. I don't care for the comparisons any longer. Has no bearing on today's tactics.

 

[bobs nob]

Is 1200 posts in about 7 hours some sort of record?

Can this get to 2000 by tomorrow?

Wow. Now that I have seen it a couple times, that's just how the ball bounces. It was NO mechanical, and people who keep screaming it doth protest too much.

Could AC have slowed up? Maybe. How much time did he have to think about it? Not much.

But AS has been pretty lame considering how badly he needs time, so tomorrow and thursday should be totally nuts. I wish I could take both days off from work.

 

[D Avoid]

Very nice of the guy. Classy gesture.

Question is: is this the only way to act? If he decided to put the ball into the net, no-one would've objected, because it happens all the time. Defenders make mistakes, strikers score. That's the game.

It was exactly the same today. When making a tactical mistake, you'll be punished inrace, no-one will object because that's racing. And all of a sudden a technical mistake is a whole of a lot different?

The game cancels itself in situations like that, same on the mountain, only people who don't see and do that are cheats, morally at least.

Robbie Fowler refused a penalty, many incidences on hand of fair play, I don't cheat, never will, I have no time for those who do. Cantador is one of those, Armstrong being right about him is quite ironic, we are talking of the wearer of the yellow jersey here, nobody else. You don't attack him in circumstances where he is impaired by mechanics or crashing, all the dead herrings that have been thrown in are hilarious, but laregely irrelevant.

What you are saying about football has nothing to do with what I was saying in my example of fair, you seem to be ignoring the obvious.

It would be interesting to know how many weeks those who believe Contador was correct, have been following cycle racing.