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Maybe bernal could be a little better than roglic and pogacar(2 best word gc cyclists) in the mountains above 2000 m, because of the altitude. Miguel Angel lopez beat pogi and roglic on la loze because of that, but in the mountains with less altitude pogi and roglic are better than angel lopez and also bernal. And that climbing records thay you're talking about are the proof. And of course, they are so much better on itts.[
I'm 1000% convinced altitude is overrated and 1hour + climbs are just very rare to see in cycling, so sample size is huge and we just let confirmation bias do the rest.
 
Roglic is so much better than carapaz on almost everything. The only thing that carapaz can be better than roglic is on long climbs with a lot of altitude.
You are right. I could see that on stage 17 Alto de Covatilla last year!!
long climbs, steep gradients, shallow gradients, descents, short climbs, etc....
Why do we always like to give excuses all the time.
 
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You are right. I could see that on stage 17 Alto de Covatilla last year!!
long climbs, steep gradients, shallow gradients, descents, short climbs, etc....
Why do we always like to give excuses all the time.
Roglic was very tired in the end of the Vuelta, after so many races including the tour. He beat carapaz in a similar climb in the beginning of the Vuelta on alto de moncavillo.
 
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Because his last 4 podiums were 2 wins in vueltas, one of which he won on time bonuses, and the other 2 were massive choke jobs. He's the best one week racer I've ever seen, but he doesn't come through when it really matters as much as he should.
And yes, apologies, I was talking about Bernals teammate I.e. Carapaz, not Roglics teammate.
What's your point exactly? he won it, didn't he? Time bounuses are as much a part of grand tour as are long climbs, descents, time trials. If someone else wants to win GC, they better get those bonuses then... Bernal and Remco seem to understand that...

As for Giro 2019 being a massive choke job for Roglič - it was just as massive as was 2020 TDF for Bernal and 2019 TDF for Pinot. Or maybe even Lombardia 2020 for Remco. Massive choke :) He massively choked himself to 2 grand tour podiums... Tell me then - who in your opinion is a deserving GC winner of a grand tour and who in your opinion should be GC favourite if not Roglič. I'm all ears...
 
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What's your point exactly? he won it, didn't he? Time bounuses are as much a part of grand tour as are long climbs, descents, time trials. If someone else wants to win GC, they better get those bonuses then... Bernal and Remco seem to understand that...

As for Giro 2019 being a massive choke job for Roglič - it was just as massive as was 2020 TDF for Bernal and 2019 TDF for Pinot. Or maybe even Lombardia 2020 for Remco. Massive choke :) He massively choked himself to 2 grand tour podiums... Tell me then - who in your opinion is a deserving GC winner of a grand tour and who in your opinion should be GC favourite if not Roglič. I'm all ears...
Calm down, you sound like you are far too emotionally invested in this.

Comparing people failing due to injury or a crash, to someone failing due to a weakness in form, tactics or character is just silly.
 
I'm 1000% convinced altitude is overrated and 1hour + climbs are just very rare to see in cycling, so sample size is huge and we just let confirmation bias do the rest.
I think Bernal won the 2019 TdF thanks to his obvious superiority a altitude? I recall Thomas was powerless as Bernal set a furious tempo on the Col de l'Iseran on stage 19. Whilst in the Pyrenees of that Tour Bernal looked vulnerable at lower altitudes.
 
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Calm down, you sound like you are far too emotionally invested in this.

Comparing people failing due to injury or a crash, to someone failing due to a weakness in form, tactics or character is just silly.
Not so much emotionally invested as shocked by the lack of reasoning on your part. Well maybe you just lack the knowledge of the situation or choose to ignore it. The comprison is competely valid. Roglič himslef fell during that Giro - on the descent of mini Lombardia stage when approaching lake Como. It was a pretty nasty crash and Roglic identified this crash as one of two main reasons for his drop of performance (other being stomach issues). Now if we take Bernal’s claims of back issues at their face value (which I think is the correct thing to do), then I see no reason why we would have different approach for Roglic. If he says it’s a crash and stomach issues then that’s what it is.

You avoided answering my quetstion. Who in your opinion is more worthy GC winner than Roglic and who should be higher on the list of favourites in your opinion? Apart from Pogacar who ticks both boxes currently. It’s an honest question. You said Roglic is severely overrated - this implies there must be a bunch of guys you rank higher than him GT/GC wise. Who are they?
 
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Roglic went very well on stage 17 in last years TdF, taking 15 seconds on Pogacar in he final kilometer at 2,300 meters. Roglic seems fine at altitude.
I'm not saying he is bad at altitude, i just said that maybe the colombians like lopez and bernal could be better than roglic in the altitude. But overall, roglic is better. The colombians live above 2000m, that' s normal.
 
I think Bernal won the 2019 TdF thanks to his obvious superiority a altitude? I recall Thomas was powerless as Bernal set a furious tempo on the Col de l'Iseran on stage 19. Whilst in the Pyrenees of that Tour Bernal looked vulnerable at lower altitudes.
No he won because he was the best climber in the third week after Pinot got injured. He got dropped on the Tourmalet above 2000m, then got dropped on Val Thorens cause the stage simply wasn't that hard.

Altitude increases gaps that are already there.
 
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I think Bernal won the 2019 TdF thanks to his obvious superiority a altitude? I recall Thomas was powerless as Bernal set a furious tempo on the Col de l'Iseran on stage 19. Whilst in the Pyrenees of that Tour Bernal looked vulnerable at lower altitudes.
Exactly, altitude make difference, bernal won the tour because of that.
 
Pogacar won Cortals d'Encamp in the 2019 Vuelta. Beat the Colombians. Then he gets dropped on Col de La Loze. Bernal wins at 1200m 1800m, whatever he doesn't care.

Dumoulin shat himself in the 2017 Giro but after that only got crushed on the infinitely high mountain that is Piancavallo while not being in the least bit of trouble in the Dolomiti. The list of examples is endless. Altitude just favors whoever's the better climber on a long climb anyway.
 
You avoided answering my quetstion. Who in your opinion is more worthy GC winner than Roglic and who should be higher on the list of favourites in your opinion? Apart from Pogacar who ticks both boxes currently. It’s an honest question. You said Roglic is severely overrated - this implies there must be a bunch of guys you rank higher than him GT/GC wise. Who are they?
He could be the best GC rider in the world and still be over rated.
I'd say he is slightly below Pog, equal with Bernal and Carapaz (previously Tom D) depending on the route. I'd also say the best version (very rare) of Yates is his equal.
He is the best 1 week racer I've seen, but not a 3 week superstar. Nobody who has only won Veultas is considered a grand tour legend. Heras won 4 and he is definitely b list.
 
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No he won because he was the best climber in the third week after Pinot got injured. He got dropped on the Tourmalet above 2000m, then got dropped on Val Thorens cause the stage simply wasn't that hard.

Altitude increases gaps that are already there.
I think Val Thorens was kind of roll home, Tour won thing. IIRC Ineos didn't chase the break at all, so they didn't care about the stage win

And I too think altitude get's too much attention. Iseran/Stevio high climbs should not be really noticeable. It's 2700 meters, not Everest base camp.
 
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He could be the best GC rider in the world and still be over rated.
I'd say he is slightly below Pog, equal with Bernal and Carapaz (previously Tom D) depending on the route. I'd also say the best version (very rare) of Yates is his equal.
He is the best 1 week racer I've seen, but not a 3 week superstar. Nobody who has only won Veultas is considered a grand tour legend. Heras won 4 and he is definitely b list.
Well he is rated second currently at TDF betting odds, so I dont know what kind of rating you are referring to when you say he’s overrated. Sure he has fans who rate him above his value but so has any rider. I think his rating (second best for GC slightly behind Pogačar) is reasonable. Regarding your personal rating - ok I understand you are putting Carapaz next to him. He beat him once and came very close the second time. I think circumstances were in favour of Carapaz both times, but ok. And if you rate Carapaz next to Roglic, it’s reasonable that you do the same with Beenal. But as for Yates - no Yates ever beat Carapaz, Roglic or Bernal or came close in GT when they went for GC…

Your latest post is much more inline with the actual situation than “hugely overrated choker” that you proclaimed him to be a couple of posts ago. That’s good;)
 
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Sporza post-race interview in English:

^^ scroll down for the video.

sorta transcribed here:

but missing some key elements

Belgian reporter suggests it's a two-horse race between Bernal and Evenepoel. Bernal sets him straight. Says the other riders high up on GC need to be respected, too.

Interestingly, when the reporter asks Bernal to get specific he mentions Yates first --because he was really strong in the Tour of the Alps... and because of his past results in GTs, I'm guessing ), then mentions Vlasov and Carthy in one breath.

Bernal also mentions "experience" (Yates and Carthy come to mind)

Later namedrops Ciccone, who he seems to rate lower than Yates, Carthy and Vlasov ("even Ciccone").
 
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Iseran/Stevio high climbs should not be really noticeable. It's 2700 meters, not Everest base camp.
I can see where you and Red Rick are coming from but either you were born and live at altitude or have never ridden at over 1,500 metres else you would not have said this. The effects of altitude were obvious to me riding at between 1,400 and 1,800 metres let alone 2,700 metres.
 
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I can see where you and Red Rick are coming from but either you were born and live at altitude or have never ridden at over 1,500 metres else you’re would not have said this. The effects of altitude were obvious to me riding at between 1,400 and 1,800 metres let alone 2,700 metres.
It's not that altitude does not have an effect, no. And apologies if you got that impression. What I mean is that the difference between a person who is acclimatized (i.e. a rider who can handle altitude) vs a person who is not acclimatized should not be great even at 2700 meters.

Anecdotally this is the case for me and I have spent most of my life at <50 m a.m.s.l.

Here it's given as about 4% at Stelvio elevation, however the acclimatization differences are major (several week vs up to 1 week) and are probably overstated for a cycling race.

.

If anyone has some specific references of genetic advantages of people born at altitude they can share those.
 
I can see where you and Red Rick are coming from but either you were born and live at altitude or have never ridden at over 1,500 metres else you would not have said this. The effects of altitude were obvious to me riding at between 1,400 and 1,800 metres let alone 2,700 metres.
There is an effect.

But it's not a unique trait that's super different between riders that magically makes them much better or worse just because there's high/low altitude.
 

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