The Powermeter Thread

[hiero2]

Frank:

Regarding straw man arguments, changing topics, misdirection, trolling, and other things.

I've thought about this post for quite a few hours now. I could make it long, really easy. But I'm gonna try and keep it short. However, we do need to revisit a few things:

Troll: In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. --- Wikipedia

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument --- Urban Dictionary

Straw Man Argument: attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position. ---A List of Fallacious Arguments

Frank, I find your protestations to be disingenuous. You ask questions you know the answers to, you disregard the answers or misinterpret them, rather then engaging in useful discussion. Your questions in this thread have been almost exclusively designed to troll and to hijack the conversation. What you seem to want me to believe is that a man with your education is either a simpleton, or is one so entangled within their internal world view arguments, that they can not understand the rational arguments presented by others. That 2nd definition could have landed a person in a mental hospital 50 years ago as severely maladapted.

Complaints that another poster is off topic do not belong in the thread. If you have such a complaint, it should be presented to the mods via a post report. Complaints about the thread and the modding do not belong in the thread - they belong in the "Moderators" thread elsewhere. Here they are off-topic.

I'm going to present a last set of examples.

Probably better discussed in the pedalling technique thread.

But when a product makes emotive comments like "the Holy Grail" I tend to want to see an independent verification of those claims even more. Not being the kind of guy to take things on faith.

I strongly agree. It has the sound of a sales pitch to convince the reader of something that ain't quite so.

Power meters that also gather data regarding pedaling technique are coming whether you think there is anything to this information or not. . . .

Huh? Let's go back to 6th grade English class, and break down Fergie's and my posts. What were the subjects of same? Wording, specifically the use of "Holy Grail". But you read into that an attack on the devices themselves, not to mention an inference that we are "unscientific". Classic straw man with ad hominem implications. Not to mention changing the subject.

. . . It is clear that power meters and pedaling technique are merging when power meters are soon going to be also measuring technique. You might be surprised to know this but some people actually think this is going to be a big advance in power meter technology. Are you really saying that it isn't appropriate to talk about power meters that also measure technique on the power meter thread? That any such mention of these meters are off topic? After all, you allow mention of SpinScan analysis in power meter threads (an attempt to measure technique) without such intervention.

Anyhow, Noels question, while you thought it might have been better placed in the pedaling technique thread, was simply an extension of two other posts by Jay Kosta and Alex Simmons an extension of a topic that had come up before. And, in my answer, which was deleted (along with a follow-up by Sci-Guy), there was no discussion regarding technique but only a technical question to the difference between these two meters and whether those differences were important or not (exactly what Noel asked) yet somehow the answer to that question was seen as off topic, but the question remains. I guess it will remain unanswered, at least by me, even though the question was directed towards me.

So Noel asked his question to me regarding a topic that had been discussed before by himself and others on this thread about a power meter and my answer is seen as off topic.

I guess if you don't want to discuss power meters that measure technique in the power meter thread then we should change the topic to power alone prohibit any mention of meters. Why you would want to prohibit any discussion of new technology is beyond me, but that seems to be where you are headed.

So, you're saying that it isn't appropriate to discuss newer power meters and how they are different from what everyone is used to? Are you saying discussing how a power meter breaks down the forces it sees to determine the power it displays has nothing to do with science? In fact, breaking down those numbers has everything to do with science.

It is just bizarre that some think it isn't appropriate to discuss all power meters in the power meter thread. I look forward to the first time someone posts their experience with Brim bros or one of the other new PM's here and see what happens. You ought to be asking yourself why are pm manufacturers choosing to provide this extra information. That would be a good topic for discussion. But, I guess if you prohibit such discussions, you can pretend these changes aren't happening.

In these, you go off in so many exaggerations and specious argument techniques, I have a hard time even numerating them. Ad hominem, half truth, selective observation, generalization, and more.

You know, I've read a LOT of your posts now. While you are very clever with your arguments - they are like going 65 in a 55 mph zone, because you know the cops won't ticket you for anything less than 66. But, because I've watched, and read, as I said at the start, I realize your protestations are disingenuous.

 

[CoachFergie]

Ya know what I get out of that? It was freakin' COLD there!

Crazy weather!

Yes it does sound rather s**ty in Europe at present.

Highlights the importance of measuring power. Many people would look at the average speed and think that it was very achievable. Even I in my youth have sustained 52kph for an hour in a road race. But when you take into account the weather, the course, the competition you can see why measuring power helps the performance analysis and competitive demands assessment process.

The average power is useful but I would like to see what the Normalized Power was for the race. From this one can see the variability of the race when compared with average power. This can be used to set endurance training targets.

One could then look at the power required for the various climbs or other hard sections of the race like crosswinds or the run into the finish. This can be used to set power training targets for specific durations and terrains.

Now of course one could do the Strava thing and see if their times are on track but my friends in Europe have been quite constrained by the weather so getting out has been difficult and many of my friends are not based in Belgium so specific preparation for a particular course has to be based on power targets, and again weather constrained, using erg efforts.

 

[hiero2]

Yes it does sound rather s**ty in Europe at present.

Highlights the importance of measuring power. Many people would look at the average speed and think that it was very achievable. Even I in my youth have sustained 52kph for an hour in a road race. But when you take into account the weather, the course, the competition you can see why measuring power helps the performance analysis and competitive demands assessment process.

The average power is useful but I would like to see what the Normalized Power was for the race. From this one can see the variability of the race when compared with average power. This can be used to set endurance training targets.

One could then look at the power required for the various climbs or other hard sections of the race like crosswinds or the run into the finish. This can be used to set power training targets for specific durations and terrains.

Now of course one could of course do the Strava thing and see if their times are on track but my friends in Europe have been quite constrained by the weather so getting out has been difficult and many of my friends are not based in Belgium so specific preparation for a particular course has to be based on power targets, and again weather constrained, using erg efforts.

My highlight there - yup, I knew you were looking at the power. Just being a little "obtuse" for humor! As for using times, a la Strava - not really much good for good training, imo. Ultimately too variable, with too many factors/variables contributing. As you point out, temps, weather conditions, etc. On PERFORMANCE day, however, time can be everything, so it does have some value, as I'm sure you already know and I think you will agree.

 

[CoachFergie]

On PERFORMANCE day, however, time can be everything, so it does have some value, as I'm sure you already know and I think you will agree.

Of course. Never been to a race yet where I just upload my power file and receive my placing.

I did some testing on a girl I coach and she has improved her FTP by 29 watts since this time last year. All things being equal this would mean a 54sec improvement in her 15km TT. At the regional champs on Sunday she lowered her time from last year by 2:30min. So 96sec that can't be accounted for by the improvement in power.

Things like....

Used a TT bike this year
Used an aero helmet
Used a skinsuit
Used lycra shoe covers
Got a professional set up on her TT bike
Did a structured warm up
Has raced on the course before (last year was first time)
Has been riding TTs over 16km all Summer
Has raced track all Summer
Didn't do a super hard race the day before
Did a pre-brief with me before she raced to map out her performance
Paced herself better than last year (no PM on bike but Garmin from both rides)
Changed gears less

All things that can't be measured with a power meter. Some things (equipment and clothing) can be tested with a power meter.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Used a TT bike this year
Used an aero helmet
Used a skinsuit
Used lycra show covers
Got a professional set up on her TT bike
Did a structured warm up
Has raced on the course before (last year was first time)
Has been riding TTs over 16km all Summer
Has raced track all Summer
Didn't do a super hard race the day before
Did a pre-brief with me before she raced to map out her performance
Paced herself better than last year (no PM on bike but Garmin from both rides)
Changed gears less

All things that can't be measured with a power meter. Some things (equipment and clothing) can be tested with a power meter.

I'd say a quantitative assessment with the aid of data from a power meter can be done on most things to do with equipment, process and execution.

Some execution things, e.g. taking better lines through corners, are difficult to assess without additional information of course, and most things to do with motivation or psychology are harder to assess (but one can asses how an individual responds to knowledge of their power data, both real time and post-hoc and then apply that knowledge accordingly, or help the athlete better understand what is/isn't important). Power meters and their data can be a doubled edged psychological sword.

I'd say power meter data in can add insight into quite a lot of the things on your list, e.g. equipment and clothing choices, position and set up choices, workload management choices, testing of pre-race routines, pacing and gear use.

Certainly in time trials it is possible to parse out with aid of power meter data how much of the change in performance on a given course is down to power output, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, environmental changes and pacing.

 

[CoachFergie]

I'd say a quantitative assessment with the aid of data from a power meter can be done on most things to do with equipment, process and execution.

Fully concur.

My contention is that is that the difference in times from this year to last year can not be fully measured by just the power meter. But most of the changes she did make can be tested with a power meter.

Some execution things, e.g. taking better lines through corners, are difficult to assess without additional information of course, and most things to do with motivation or psychology are harder to assess (but one can asses how an individual responds to knowledge of their power data, both real time and post-hoc and then apply that knowledge accordingly, or help the athlete better understand what is/isn't important). Power meters and their data can be a doubled edged psychological sword.

Well yes, we can show that diet, training, overtraining can have serious implications for power delivery and we can also show that changing crank length, pedalling technique or using training gimmicks have very little long term effect on power or efficiency.

Skills is more qualitative. I use video analysis but have been using Garmin files with Downhill Cyclists (and SRM now they make a DH model) to compare different rides and the times they do for certain sections.

I'd say power meter data in can add insight into quite a lot of the things on your list, e.g. equipment and clothing choices, position and set up choices, workload management choices, testing of pre-race routines, pacing and gear use.

Certainly in time trials it is possible to parse out with aid of power meter data how much of the change in performance on a given course is down to power output, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, environmental changes and pacing.

Preaching to the converted Alex

 

[simo1733]

Fully concur.

My contention is that is that the difference in times from this year to last year can not be fully measured by just the power meter. But most of the changes she did make can be tested with a power meter.



Well yes, we can show that diet, training, overtraining can have serious implications for power delivery and we can also show that changing crank length, pedalling technique or using training gimmicks have very little long term effect on power or efficiency.

Skills is more qualitative. I use video analysis but have been using Garmin files with Downhill Cyclists (and SRM now they make a DH model) to compare different rides and the times they do for certain sections.



Preaching to the converted Alex

Regarding Timetrialing with a power meter.What is regarded as the optimum pacing strategy.Should we be aiming for constant power throughout, or should there be some increase kn the uphills..It has been reported that Sky often aim for negative splits.?

 

[CoachFergie]

Regarding Timetrialing with a power meter.What is regarded as the optimum pacing strategy.Should we be aiming for constant power throughout, or should there be some increase kn the uphills..It has been reported that Sky often aim for negative splits.?

You are in for a treat, Alex has written an extensive document on pacing in time trials and how to pace on courses with hills.

 

[simo1733]

That would be interesting to read.It took me years to realise that I was starting too hard in TTs.Made a big difference when the penny finally dropped.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Regarding Timetrialing with a power meter.What is regarded as the optimum pacing strategy.Should we be aiming for constant power throughout, or should there be some increase kn the uphills..It has been reported that Sky often aim for negative splits.?

Well not sure if a discussion on pacing per se is on topic. But the precis is:

In terms of actual power numbers:
- harder than intended average on inclines, how much depends a bit on length and gradient but usually no more than 10% over, much less on longer climbs
- less hard on declines
- drive it over any crests before any easing back of power
- don't start too hard (at or under intended average power)
- focus on the road, not the meter

In terms of perceived exertion:
- go steady on inclines (power will naturally be higher anyway)
- push hard on declines (power will naturally be lower anyway)
- opening few minutes should feel easy (but it won't be in power terms)
- keep the strain on the chain and as Kraig Willett would say, "run what ya brung and have fun"

 

[veganrob]

Thanks for that very valuable piece of information.
TT is my race of choice as I am old and don't feel like mixing it up in crits. Might try some track this year.

 

[simo1733]

Well not sure if a discussion on pacing per se is on topic. But the precis is:

In terms of actual power numbers:
- harder than intended average on inclines, how much depends a bit on length and gradient but usually no more than 10% over, much less on longer climbs
- less hard on declines
- drive it over any crests before any easing back of power
- don't start too hard (at or under intended average power)
- focus on the road, not the meter

In terms of perceived exertion:
- go steady on inclines (power will naturally be higher anyway)
- push hard on declines (power will naturally be lower anyway)
- opening few minutes should feel easy (but it won't be in power terms)
- keep the strain on the chain and as Kraig Willett would say, "run what ya brung and have fun"

Thanks for the info.I can't disagree with any of those suggestions..

 

[FrankDay]

Frank:…(big put down)

I'll bet you hoped I finally understood your points and had slunk away. Not quite. Had to take a little break to have a gall bladder removed. Still am pretty much under the weather but I will come back and answer your post a little more specifically.

Thanks for your continued interest.

 

[coapman]

I'll bet you hoped I finally understood your points and had slunk away. Not quite. Had to take a little break to have a gall bladder removed. Still am pretty much under the weather but I will come back and answer your post a little more specifically.

Best of luck for a speedy recovery, which you will need if you are to convince this lot.

 

[CoachFergie]

Oh joy, more off-topic posts.

Books on racing and training with a power meter.

The Triathletes Guide to Training with a Power Meter: Dr Phil Skiba.

http://www.physfarm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=20

The Power Meter Handbook: Joe Friel.

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Meter-Handbook-Cyclists-Triathletes/dp/1934030953

Training and Racing with a Power Meter: Hunter Allen and Dr Andrew Coggan

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1934030554/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

All three are good reads and fully explain what your power can and can't do for your racing and training.

 

[hiero2]

Originally Posted by hiero2 View Post
Frank:…(big put down)

I'll bet you hoped I finally understood your points and had slunk away. Not quite. Had to take a little break to have a gall bladder removed. Still am pretty much under the weather but I will come back and answer your post a little more specifically.

Thanks for your continued interest.

I also wish you a good recovery.

As for "put downs", I always thought of a put down as something that was basically not true. At best, they are an exaggeration of the importance of some characteristic.

So, as I see it, my note was not a put down. It was a statement of verifiable truth, based on your writings in this forum. I don't intend to get drawn in to a discussion on this. The rules are posted, and they are what they are.

You are on notice, though, that rhetorical questions, from you, will be considered trolling. Answers that distort, or intentionally misunderstand, the post being responded to will be considered trolling and/or off-topic.

I give you these posts as a sign of respect, from one human being to another. At least on this forum, when I have issued similar warnings to others, I have gotten some respect. I would hope that trend continues in this case.

As Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try". My post is also off-topic, and for that, my apologies. However, I intend this to be the last such OT post in this section of the forums.

 

[FrankDay]

I also wish you a good recovery.

As for "put downs", I always thought of a put down as something that was basically not true. At best, they are an exaggeration of the importance of some characteristic.

So, as I see it, my note was not a put down. It was a statement of verifiable truth, based on your writings in this forum. I don't intend to get drawn in to a discussion on this. The rules are posted, and they are what they are.

You are on notice, though, that rhetorical questions, from you, will be considered trolling. Answers that distort, or intentionally misunderstand, the post being responded to will be considered trolling and/or off-topic.

I give you these posts as a sign of respect, from one human being to another. At least on this forum, when I have issued similar warnings to others, I have gotten some respect. I would hope that trend continues in this case.

As Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try". My post is also off-topic, and for that, my apologies. However, I intend this to be the last such OT post in this section of the forums.

I have changed my mind. Your original put down is not worth my effort in rebutting.

Let me simply say that I find it strange that we are in the "General" "Form & Fitness" forum of the cyclingnews website. Power meters are the only tool that reasonably directly measures fitness. The new power meters that are coming are also the only tool that will directly measure form. Yet, for some reason, it has been determined that it is not appropriate and off-topic to discuss both aspects of this one tool in the one thread devoted to power meters in the Form & Fitness forum.

So be it.

 

[CoachFergie]

Form, as measured with a power meter.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-the-performance-management-chart.aspx

 

[CoachFergie]

As I finished a very undulating ride yesterday and downloaded my SRM I saw Intensity Factor of .930 for nearly two hours. Reminds me I need to retest my Functional Threshold.

Alex Simmons has written a couple of great blog posts on FTP, Normalized Power and what is known as a NP Buster...

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.nz/2013/03/you-cant-touch-this-part-i.html

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.nz/2013/03/you-cant-touch-this-part-ii.html

Meanwhile over on BikeTechReview they take a more Caveman approach to things...

http://biketechreview.com/index.php/blog/545-training-qloadq-raise-and-fill

Although I would counter with the following comparison of speed and power from a 16km TT on the same course in the NZ Summer.


N* 11

Equation* Speed = 28.64 + 0.04597 Power

R²* 0.368

 

[CoachFergie]

"the best measure of a rider's competitive ability relative to that of others is their actual race performance, not their power output"

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

Great article and it is a bugbear of mine when riders want to compare their data with other riders. A, confidentiality and B, you have no idea what position they rode in, what their technique was like, how they paced themselves and most importantly how hard they chose to ride that day.

 

[CoachFergie]

Interesting comments about Cancellara's power from the Ronde when it appears from the photos that he wasn't using a power meter

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-of-flanders-2013/photos/259345

 

[Tapeworm]

Estimated power is estimated

 

[hiero2]

Interesting comments about Cancellara's power from the Ronde when it appears from the photos that he wasn't using a power meter

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-of-flanders-2013/photos/259345

Huh? What comments about power? I didn't find anything except this:

16:18:28 CEST

Cancellara is rocking all over the bike but is putting down some huge watts.

from the live coverage. Did I miss something?

 

[Tapeworm]

^ I think the chatter was from various post-race analysis from some "experts". I read some account saying "that Fabian was pushing 1450watts seated when he made his move."

The photo Fergie linked just demonstrates that Cancellara was only running the PC7 not the SRM and hence the guesses about what he actually put out are only guesses.

 

[Tapeworm]

For those who "don't like to ride to numbers" and subsequently eschew power meters, here's how it's supposed to be done:-

Taylor Phinney's setup for Paris-Roubaix. Don't have to see the wattage, get the other useful data, download the rest for post-race analysis. Something that I think I should do actually...