Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[Valv.Piti]

They rode well, but Visma's idiotic tactics in the valley cost them because they had no clue how to respond. No way you can predict Jorgenson is jumping like that for no reason, and then it was pretty much over. They should have made a deal with Gall though relatively quickly because everyone stood to gain something from that and secured that 3rd and 4th place. That looked really bad I must admit.

 

[Red Rick]

They rode well, but Visma's idiotic tactics in the valley cost them because they had no clue how to respond. No way you can predict Jorgenson is jumping like that for no reason, and then it was pretty much over. They should have made a deal with Gall though relatively quickly because everyone stood to gain something from that and secured that 3rd and 4th place. That looked really bad I must admit.

Didn't the winning attack literally go away while Roglic was taking a piss?

Maybe there should be some communication from the team car that if such an attack goes with more than 1 guy one of them should be on it. But I also think they were both really tired already and Rog just gravitates to saving as much as he can.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

They rode well, but Visma's idiotic tactics in the valley cost them because they had no clue how to respond. No way you can predict Jorgenson is jumping like that for no reason, and then it was pretty much over. They should have made a deal with Gall though relatively quickly because everyone stood to gain something from that and secured that 3rd and 4th place. That looked really bad I must admit.

I mean, you call Jorgenson jumping idiotic, but I think it would have been even more idiotic to have Jorgenson pace the valley because that wouldn‘t actually help Vingegaard at all.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Didn't the winning attack literally go away while Roglic was taking a piss?

Maybe there should be some communication from the team car that if such an attack goes with more than 1 guy one of them should be on it. But I also think they were both really tired already and Rog just gravitates to saving as much as he can.

Yes it did, but even then, I don't think you are riding for the stage win at this point of the race. You ride for GC placements and Gall should be interested as well as he had lots to gain as well getting 5th. Lipo's podium and white jersey is a done deal, and Roglic would look rly good for 4th. Dno, it just felt whack to watch, and basically everything they could have done would be better than what they ended up getting.

But I really enjoyed their race apart from thar.

 

[TrekCyclist]

When Lipowitz started loosing time on BOC at the begining of Loze it was clear already that he was doomed. tbh Bora tactics did not make much sense today at all. if anything i guess this was Denk's "we want to show attractive racing".

 

[cen]

Didn't the winning attack literally go away while Roglic was taking a piss?

Maybe there should be some communication from the team car that if such an attack goes with more than 1 guy one of them should be on it. But I also think they were both really tired already and Rog just gravitates to saving as much as he can.

No, when attack happened Lipo did not attach yet, he came to the group in the next 20sec or so if I recall.

 

[SafeBet]

Lipowitz spent 55 km of today's stage either alone or pulling in front of another rider (Arensman, Jorgenson).
This was just madness from him and the team car.

 

[SafeBet]

No, when attack happened Lipo did not attach yet, he came to the group in the next 20sec or so if I recall.

Yep, he bridged after the trio had attacked and the cooperation in the yellow jersey group had stopped. Rested for about 7 km, then attacked himself.
Pogacar level of dominance if he succeeded. But of course he's no Pogacar.

 

[Faserr]

I think Pog had to do 2km, Vingegaard 4-5km. Even Onley just had to to last part of the Madeleine (were he paced himself) and 300 metres of Loze.
Pog would have finished it off, but Lipowitz is no Pog. He or his team went for everything but it could cost him the podium.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Considering RBH took two leaders with full freedom and close to none support in mountains i don't feel that they did much wrong today. Rogla attacked early on the first climb and got in the break, Lipo was strong and could bridge with the aliens over the penultimate climb. So far IMHO this was rather perfect. On what IMHO went wrong, for RBH, Jonas had no clue on what to do after bridging and both Jonas and Pogi hence decided to wait for their teams. Unless i guess RBH would pull and here i feel that it was the right call, not to do that or wait for Onley to return, to act with Lipo, considering he felt strong.

So in the end RBH raced tactically sound it's Jonas who stalled and send Matteo ahead and after ridiculously strong UAE and Visma spoon feeding their leaders over the ultimate climb. Here i feel that RBH coudn't really do much about it. In previous days they secured a buffer in terms of white jersey and Lipo advantage over Onley, so they could afford to lose some time today.

As for stage 19, Lipo likely on Onleys wheel and Rogla likely again in the break, if the legs to allow for it. We'll see.

 

[Berniece]

I don’t see a problem with how they raced. You don’t know beforehand how the race unfolds. Both Lipowitz and Roglic went for it, which should be applauded. Lipowitz could ride on the wheel of Onley and finish on the podium, or attack maybe win the stage and if Vingegaard keeps looking at Pogi, get closer to that 2nd spot on the podium. Sometimes you just have to try and see where you end up.

 

[broppo]

Considering RBH took two leaders with full freedom and close to none support in mountains i don't feel that they did much wrong today. Rogla attacked early on the first climb and got in the break, Lipo was strong and could bridge with the aliens over the penultimate climb. So far IMHO this was rather perfect. On what IMHO went wrong, for RBH, Jonas had no clue on what to do after bridging and both Jonas and Pogi hence decided to wait for their teams. Unless i guess RBH would pull and here i feel that it was the right call, not to do that or wait for Onley to return, to act with Lipo, considering he felt strong.

So in the end RBH raced tactically sound it's Jonas who stalled and send Matteo ahead and after ridiculously strong UAE and Visma spoon feeding their leaders over the ultimate climb. Here i feel that RBH coudn't really do much about it. In previous days they secured a buffer in terms of white jersey and Lipo advantage over Onley, so they could afford to lose some time today.

As for stage 19, Lipo likely on Onleys wheel and Rogla likely again in the break, if the legs to allow for it. We'll see.

Putting Roglic in the break is silly. Then the same thing will happen that happened today. Another team like visma or uae will pull the break back and then roglic has become useless. They should just both ride defensively and follow Onley, and roglic should ride for lipowitz. And maybe roll attacks on the last climb if they feel good.

Tactically they were horrible today. Somehow they almost lost the 3d place while they had a 3 minute gap to onley with 30 km to go. It was a pure disaster.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@broppo

If they have Rogla in the break and Lipo on Onleys wheel then i feel both 3rd place overall and white jersey are secure.

 

[broppo]

@broppo

If they have Rogla in the break and Lipo on Onleys wheel then i feel both 3rd place overall and white jersey are secure.

Yeah and then Gall attacks in the break and Roglic cant follow, and Onley and Lipowitz just look at each other. And you end up with nothing. No, Roglic should just be in domestique duty, that is the best and safest plan to secure 3d.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Yeah and then Gall attacks in the break and Roglic cant follow, and Onley and Lipowitz just look at each other. And you end up with nothing.

Gall is like 4 1/2 minute behind Lipo. He’s also almost 3 min behind Roglic. Gall is irrelevant for 3rd.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@broppo

If Visma actually had a sound plan today, both Rogla and Lipo would gain minutes so of course they are going to try again tomorrow if the legs will allow for it. Otherwise indeed they will just follow all day long and that is that.

 

[broppo]

Gall is like 4 1/2 minute behind Lipo. He’s also almost 3 min behind Roglic. Gall is irrelevant for 3rd.

Still Roglic could be of great use to Lipowitz and he should have just pulled in the vingegard Pogacar group today. I feel like putting him in the break again could end up being a disaster, like it really was today. This day should not be repeated! Rolling attacks on Onley if both feel good on the last climb is a much safer and more effective strategy.

 

[dazaau]

Putting Roglic in the break is silly. Then the same thing will happen that happened today. Another team like visma or uae will pull the break back and then roglic has become useless. They should just both ride defensively and follow Onley, and roglic should ride for lipowitz. And maybe roll attacks on the last climb if they feel good.

Tactically they were horrible today. Somehow they almost lost the 3d place while they had a 3 minute gap to onley with 30 km to go. It was a pure disaster.

I don't think it's fair to assume uae or Visma care about Roglic in a break, he isn't a threat to them in his current position.

 

[broppo]

@broppo

If Visma actually had a sound plan today, both Rogla and Lipo would gain minutes so of course they are going to try again tomorrow if the legs will allow for it. Otherwise indeed they will just follow all day long and that is that.

Why didnt Roglic follow O connor and Rubio or just pulled the group, to secure 3d It was absolutely horrible what they did today and you can obviously tell that the team car has no clue what to do nor do the riders. So just keep it simple this final mountain stage imo. Putting roglic in the break might again result in some unexpected scenarios, where they become clueless.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@broppo

Because they rather launched Lipo ahead. Sound decision, considering Jonas and Pogi wouldn't work and Onley was coming back. Better question is on why Matteo didn't pull, but that is out of control of RBH. Why Jonas bridged in the first place if he had no intention to do anything but wait for the team. But as said that is not something RBH can control.

 

[broppo]

@broppo

Because they rather launched Lipo ahead. Sound decision, considering Jonas and Pogi wouldn't work and Onley was coming back. Better question is on why Matteo didn't pull, but that is out of control of RBH. Why Jonas bridged in the first place if he had no intention to do anything but wait for the team. But as said that is not something RBH can control.

Sound decision? Lipowitz was riding alone for like 60 km. Why didnt Roglic help him one time? There is clearly something wrong in this team. They also didnt pull Lipowitz back when it was clear he was losing time to O connor, making sure he completely blew himself up on the last climb. I don't know why you say it was a sound decision. Bora was all over the place....

 

[CyclistAbi]

Sound decision? Lipowitz was riding alone for like 60 km. Why didnt Roglic help him one time? There is clearly something wrong in this team. They also didnt pull Lipowitz back when it was clear he was losing time to O connor, making sure he completely blew himself up on the last climb. I don't know why you say it was a sound decision. Bora was all over the place....

At some point Lipo was tucked behind in the peloton, then he followed aliens and bridged, then attacked. IMHO he was perfectly OK with doing all that and IMHO is happy he has such freedom to do that. IMHO Lipo would be rather angry if not allowed to attack on the ultimate climb. He felt strong and went for it, reasons involved like potential stage win and to distance Onley and to close in on Jonas.

 

[yaco]

OConnor is known for one good performance a year and blowing himself up all the time, not unlikely at all ..

You dont finish 2nd in the Vuelta, fourth in the Giro and the TDF with one good performance a year. Lipowitz needed to go with Rubio and O'Connor, instead of hesitating and riding the valley by himself.

 

[SafeBet]

Everything actually played in Red Bull hands in the valley.
The main reason why Lipo bridges to the Pog's group is because Jorgenson stops pulling and the group doesn't cooperate after the non GC relevant riders have attacked.

At that point Red Bull have both of their GC riders in the yellow jersey group. Gap to the Onley group is 2'30". Gap to the Vauquelin group with Onley's domestiques is almost 4 minutes!
It's a freaking dream scenario despite all the energy spent by both Roglic and Lipowitz. You just need to talk to Decathlon, have both Rogla and Lipo ride a decent pace with Gall for 14 km until you reach Col de la Loze. Then you reasses based on gaps.

But no you decide to throw away all the advantage you have built, let Onley come back and give him the privilege to do so without ever pulling a metre. And have Lipo cook himself further in the process. Come on.

 

[search]

Lipowitz needed to go with Rubio and O'Connor, instead of hesitating and riding the valley by himself.

Lipowitz wasn't even part of the same group when that attack happened