Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[QueenStagiaire]

He definitely shouldn‘t have waited for the Onley group because he ended up two minutes ahead of the Onley group with his teammate Roglič. If they had just stayed together there and not attacked, they would’ve had a much better situation than if Lipowitz had decided to drop back again.

 

[kingjr]

The attack makes sense if it's a 10k 8% climb. Not if it's a 27km grinder. I was mocking Gall but he clearly was gassed. Roglic was gassed. Anyone who did nothing on the Madeleine were big beneficiaries.

Only because Pogacar and Vinegegaard dropped back and Visma then took over pacemaking duties. Otherwise, Onley is on his own.

 

[Red Rick]

Only because Pogacar and Vinegegaard dropped back and Visma then took over pacemaking duties. Otherwise, Onley is on his own.

Well that's a scenario anyone could have seen coming.

 

[Rackham]

Two leaders racing against each other sort of often results in this sort of snafu.

Without gregarios to pace anyone either (Vlasov is MIA), then it's just anarchy out there.

 

[kingjr]

Well that's a scenario anyone could have seen coming.

Only after Lipowitz attacked. If Roglic and Lipowitz drive the group instead, they enter the last climb with at least 3 minutes on Onley, who was without teammates pretty much instantly and would have had no Visma to help him.

 

[Faserr]

He lost a lot of energy on the Madeleine. It was a risky strategy to let him alone between Pog/Ving and the rest in strong headwind. I also think he was pissed that he had to ride alone in the wind. He was shaking his head. Then he or his DS overestimated his strength on the last climb. Draft was very important there.
I still think he can fire back tomorrow.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I wonder how much Lipo has left for tomorrow, had his face in the wind a lot today. The team's tactics made for some entertaining viewing, I guess, but backfired badly.

 

[Remy55]

He lost a lot of energy on the Madeleine. It was a risky strategy to let him alone between Pog/Ving and the rest in strong headwind. I also think he was pissed that he had to ride alone in the wind. He was shaking his head. Then he or his DS overestimated his strength on the last climb. Draft was very important there.
I still think he can fire back tomorrow.

yep, thats a big question for me: why was he shaking his head on Madeleine?

 

[Rackham]

He lost a lot of energy on the Madeleine. It was a risky strategy to let him alone between Pog/Ving and the rest in strong headwind. I also think he was pissed that he had to ride alone in the wind. He was shaking his head. Then he or his DS overestimated his strength on the last climb. Draft was very important there.
I still think he can fire back tomorrow.

He wasn't racing against Onley on the Madeleine - he was racing against Rog. That's where his immediate podium danger was and that's what he was seeing on the road. Hence why he pushed so hard. That's also why he went all-in with his attack once they regrouped.

On Tuesday Onley said he stood no chance against the Red Bull Bora guys who worked together. Today he gained time on both because they impeded each other at every turn. I put most of this on Lipowitz mind you, i.e. he looked like he wanted to make the jump as early as when Rog went on the Glandon.

I feel like the concept of finishing ahead of Rog in GC might have become a scalp in and of itself.

 

[Faserr]

Yes. The safest thing would have been to stay on Onleys wheel on Madeleine, but he was also isolated there.

 

[kingjr]

He wasn't racing against Onley on the Madeleine - he was racing against Rog. That's where his immediate podium danger was and that's what he was seeing on the road. Hence why he pushed so hard. That's also why he went all-in with his attack once they regrouped.

On Tuesday Onley said he stood no chance against the Red Bull Bora guys who worked together. Today he gained time on both because they impeded each other at every turn. I put most of this on Lipowitz mind you, i.e. he looked like he wanted to make the jump as early as when Rog went on the Glandon.

I feel like the concept of finishing ahead of Rog in GC might have become a scalp in and of itself.

Is there a scientific term for "main character syndrome on someone else's behalf"?

 

[Salvarani]

3rd in TdF is a huge result for a young rider like Lipo and the team, so this was just bad.

The team should adviced and protected him better here. Hope he can recover and doesnt lose out on the podium in this way.

 

[TrekCyclist]

dont know if he should have stayed with Onley on the Madelaine. But for sure he should have stayed with Pogacar and Vingo in the Valley. Very likely he would have been able to stay with Onley on Loze then - or even have som gas left to attack wth 5 to go or so.

 

[AmRacer]

It was a fun ride today of both of you. Tomorrow please ride tactically smarter.

 

[Oldman]

He definitely shouldn‘t have waited for the Onley group because he ended up two minutes ahead of the Onley group with his teammate Roglič. If they had just stayed together there and not attacked, they would’ve had a much better situation than if Lipowitz had decided to drop back again.

It's easy to question doing something although Lipo should've been called off much earlier. He was making no progress towards O'Connor and gave everyone else the luxury to just sit. O'Connor should be buying he and Matteo a beer for assisting the gap.
Tomorrow will tell if that effort is even more costly as Florian is approaching uncharted territory. Saving grace is Primoz's race is Onley's wheel, now. That is fairly simple.

 

[cen]

Well.. if Lipo had the legs we would be calling it a genious move.. I wonder if it was his idea to attack there..

 

[Sciatic]

Well.. if Lipo had the legs we would be calling it a genious move.. I wonder if it was his idea to attack there..

Why would we call it that? He was unlikely to close that gap to a good climber in OConnor. If he wanted to solidify 3rd he should have stayed in Pog group and shadowed Onley.

 

[Links2003]

I thought the team's tactics were really good today. Very courageous. How often do you see riders only riding on defense? That's boring. Only those who try something can achieve something. In the end, of course, they were punished for their courage.

I hope Lipo continues to be such a courageous driver and the team gives him his freedom. That is his strength. He took the chance he was given. Unfortunately, he had already used up too much energy.

If Visma had continued, Lipo would now have a huge lead over Onley. Roglic also looked strong for a long time, but unfortunately not at the end. I think he lost more time than necessary.

I wish Lipo to keep 3rd place and the jersey and to be rewarded in the end for trying things and attacking against the best riders.

 

[Rackham]

If Visma had continued, Lipo would now have a huge lead over Onley. Roglic also looked strong for a long time, but unfortunately not at the end. I think he lost more time than necessary.

It's true that Visma's inexplicable tactical about face when Jorgenson attacked from the Vinge-Pog group really scuppered Red Bull Bora's day.

There should be a minimum of leeway given to both riders here considering they're basically riding alone, without team support, whilst having to interpret and second-guess the actions of others, namely UAE and Visma.

Vinge getting cold feet after the Madeleine was the major turning point today.

 

[Oldman]

It's true that Visma's inexplicable tactical about face when Jorgenson attacked from the Vinge-Pog group really scuppered Red Bull Bora's day.

There should be a minimum of leeway given to both riders here considering they're basically riding alone, without team support, whilst having to interpret and second-guess the actions of others, namely UAE and Visma.

Vinge getting cold feet after the Madeleine was the major turning point today.

You're right. There was no reason to chase Matteo unless his DS thought it might get him ahead of attacks from Pogi and Vingo. That said; easing up when that opportunity was no longer move should have been conveyed to him if he couldn't figure out himself. It might have kept him closer to the finishing group but we haven't heard from him to explain.

 

[scribers]

This has jumbo at the vuelta 2023 stank all over it

 

[staubsauger]

Vodka + red bull in the team car today

So Red Bull needs a proper Jägermeister to call the shots!?

 

[cen]

Why would we call it that? He was unlikely to close that gap to a good climber in OConnor. If he wanted to solidify 3rd he should have stayed in Pog group and shadowed Onley.

OConnor is known for one good performance a year and blowing himself up all the time, not unlikely at all ..

 

[geisterhome]

There isnt a team order, Lipowitz pacing up and down Madeleine like the police was after him was imo due to the danger of Roglic taking 3rd from him, waiting for Onley wasnt an option.

 

[geisterhome]

I don't think that today's effort will cost him that much tho, Onley was also pacing his group for the most part and then went all out on Loze, not like he got a rest day, they both invested a ton.