Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[Sciatic]

Oh, really? Why do so many NBA fans still yearn for the old Seattle SuperSonics now known as Oklahoma City Thunder?

?

What a dreadful reminder, thanks a lot

 

[CyclistAbi]

Man U is not going to rebrand.

Ineos United? It does look like some sort of consolidation is ongoing in European sports. For example Red Bull vs. Ineos in F1, football and now cycling. Luckily, for now, that is still minority. Compared to everything else.

 

[Izzyeviel]

The ability to move a team to a new location is hardly a defining aspect of American sports. It's just one way of dealing with the failure case. In English football, failed teams simply get demoted from the top league, their spot taken up by team in another city. I hardly see a difference there. Meanwhile, in the success case: American teams that actually have fans like the Celtics, 49ers, Yankees are never going to rebrand, just as Man U is not going to rebrand.

And no American sports team (i.e. American team playing an American sport) is named after a commercial interest. That's unique to European sports.

in america, its a way to make even more money than a way of dealing with failure.

 

[Faserr]

Oliver Mintzlaff (Red Bull, head of sports sponsoring) said at the training camp of RB Leipzig that they want to develop the team into a Tour winning one without hurry. In 2025 they will really start working on that.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

That's not much of a vote of confidence in Roglic

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Just saw that Heinrich Haussler joins the team for 2024, as an Assistant Sports Director… Good for „Heino“ and Bora…

 

[Faserr]

That's not much of a vote of confidence in Roglic

He probably wants to bring the team quality up to a level of Visma and UAE.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Oliver Mintzlaff (Red Bull, head of sports sponsoring) said at the training camp of RB Leipzig that they want to develop the team into a Tour winning one without hurry. In 2025 they will really start working on that.

Rogla already started working on that. So Oliver will likely feel a bit rushed. As it should be.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Being a new money club and being from East Germany also doesn't help.
That's actually the most positive aspect of Leipzig, now there's a new big team from East Germany that more people from the East can cheer for because there's a lack of old rivalries. One also has to say that unlike many small East German teams they have very few problems with extreme right winged fans (Lokomotive Leipzig being the worst "offender", if you can blame the team), their fan base is actually more left winged.

They are clearly not the big baddie in the Bundesliga and have never used the concept of buying all your opponents best players to ruin them like Bayern München with their kaputtkaufen.

Imo they are actually a positive addition to the Bundesliga.

Their sympathy levels among East Germans are terrible, not to mention that the whole "give the masses something to cheer for" approach is a pretty twisted argument in their favor, might as well bring bach the colosseum.
Their fanbase is definitely not left wing, no idea where you get that from, the last polling I saw on political orientation of Bundesliga fans saw them furthest to the right. I'd agree that Lok is worse (a pretty low bar) but if you want a left wing Leipzig club you have Chemie.

Yes, so far they haven't had the financial muscle of Bayern München but that doesn't mean they operate in the same vain. Their 10 year net transfer spend is still second to Bayern and that is already skewed because they frequently get gifted players from their farming teams. They've constantly weakened other clubs as well just not making as much headlines.
And even worse, they've destroyed plenty of East German youth academies by poaching literally every young player in the region, so much for the "positive addition", especially for East Germany.


Red Bull is what it is. The product itself is probably on the better side, yeah there are health issues but ethically thats nothing compared to the Oil or Chemical companies that are ivesting in cycling.
The Matteschitz family is a classic right wing shitshow but so is Radcliff, so that itself is also nothing special. Their media empire is pretty bad tho, Climate denial, covid conspiracies, general xenophobia - they're basically the Austrian Murdoch equivalent, just with a lesser reach. Totally fine to call them out on that.

I think they rightfully just rub a lot of people the wrong way with how they approach their sponsoring in sports, it's the classical big money bull in a china shop attitude. People have written enough about their questionable football envolvement, they've set also some pretty terrible standards in plenty of outdoor sports with total disregard for nature, local communities and traditions.

Are they as bad as some other sponsors? Probably not but they'd still rank pretty low in my ranking.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I am sure that on each big match you do get a handful of extreme left and right people on the same stadium. And ironically, when cheering for the same team, they agree.

 

[Netserk]

Red Bull is what it is. The product itself is probably on the better side, yeah there are health issues but ethically thats nothing compared to the Oil or Chemical companies that are ivesting in cycling.

I'd rather live in a world of tomorrow without energy drinks than one without oil and petrochemicals.

Quite warped way to judge products.

 

[Netserk]

It's not a judgment of products, it's a judgment of the entities that produce them.

What is this sentence about: "The product itself is probably on the better side, yeah there are health issues but [...]"?

And if you're not judging the product, what exactly is particularly unethical about Uno-X and Total? Or Ineos?

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

It's not a judgment of products, it's a judgment of the entities that produce them.

Exactly.

What is this sentence about: "The product itself is probably on the better side, yeah there are health issues but [...]"?

And if you're not judging the product, what exactly is particularly unethical about Uno-X and Total? Or Ineos?

I know that at the end of the line every consumable product is somehow a result of a society that has historically mainly functioned through fossil fuel industralisation. Yet it is still not that hard to understand while people see ua difference between companies that produce kitchen equipment or run hotels and companies that enrichen themselves on limited natural ressources while having a terrible environmental record.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So some of the biggest sponsors currently are oil, oil, products from oil, sellers of products from oil, sugar ... And i don't see that changing anytime soon.

P.S. Tobacco and alcohol just waiting for a fair chance.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It's like look at the "sins" your culture describe in some book. Or in this modern day and age, look at the "sins" science foresees. Now in those areas you will find eligible long term sponsor for sports. The rest just don't have enough money.

Or i guess to do it for a bit less. But yeah, no agent would agree with that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1744287213335015442

View: https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1744287213335015442

Glimpse of the future?

WorldTour Team Budgets 2023: A Glimpse into the Financial Powerhouses of Procycling - TheCyclingSonar

EDIT: Please see the 2025 update https://thecyclingsonar.com/blog/2025/07/12/worldtour-team-budgets-2025/The world of professional cycling is not only about riders conquering challenging terrains and sprinting to victory; it's also a complex business where budgets play a pivotal role in...

thecyclingsonar.com

So likely at best top 5 teams being able to catch up and afford it. In some not so distant future.

Marc Madiot calls for team budget caps as ‘Big Four’ dominate the WorldTour

Jumbo-Visma, UAE Team Emirates, Soudal-QuickStep and Alpecin-Deceuninck have won 73% of WorldTour races in 2023

www.cyclingnews.com

Who would have thought too much money in cycling became the real problem. Interesting and challenging times.

 

[Netserk]

I know that at the end of the line every consumable product is somehow a result of a society that has historically mainly functioned through fossil fuel industralisation.

Rather a society that until recently mainly functioned without fossil fuels. And to put it mildly, the world wasn't better then nor more "ethical".

Yet it is still not that hard to understand while people see ua difference between companies that produce kitchen equipment or run hotels and companies that enrichen themselves on limited natural ressources while having a terrible environmental record.

It's unfortunately not hard to understand just how "magical" and warped the people with such views are. Luddites worshipping suffering is just a too common human failure mode for anyone to be unfamiliar with.

If you like the fruits, you shouldn't spit on those who plant the trees.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Rather a society that until recently mainly functioned without fossil fuels. And to put it mildly, the world wasn't better then nor more "ethical".

It's unfortunately not hard to understand just how "magical" and warped the people with such views are. Luddites worshipping suffering is just a too common human failure mode for anyone to be unfamiliar with.

If you like the fruits, you shouldn't spit on those who plant the trees.

I never said society was better pre fossil fuels. The technologies are great, the distribution and profit exploitation mechanisms are not. And no, the shareholders of Total or Ineos are not "planting the trees".

But I wasn't expecting you to bother with these nuances, nice rambling anyway

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yeah, the ever lasting debate about society and fossil fuels. We will likely fossilize before it will get resolved. My take on this is we should do better. That is both sides.

 

[Netserk]

The question on the table is not what changes we should make in order to improve society, and I don't argue against changes based on your actions. So neither comment in the comic applies to my post.

It's a question of evaluation, and my point is that it must be compared to the counterfactual. If you appreciate products like petroleum and its derivatives, then you got to appreciate the best vehicle to bring that about. The two go together. And while it's obvious that the main current vehicles capture a lot of value, I don't think you appreciate the amount of value they don't capture and the distribution of it. And I find it very hard to imagine the counterfactual vehicles that you would approve of that effectively distributes a greater amount of value globally.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

The question on the table is not what changes we should make in order to improve society, and I don't argue against changes based on your actions. So neither comment in the comic applies to my post.

It's a question of evaluation, and my point is that it must be compared to the counterfactual. If you appreciate products like petroleum and its derivatives, then you got to appreciate the best vehicle to bring that about. The two go together. And while it's obvious that the main current vehicles capture a lot of value, I don't think you appreciate the amount of value they don't capture and the distribution of it. And I find it very hard to imagine the counterfactual vehicles that you would approve of that effectively distributes a greater amount of value globally.

Problem is, your "counterfactual" is just an empty phrase because as you just wrote yourself, you find it very hard to imagine that anything other than the current system would work better.
So no matter how many points I would list, you would always fall back to "Well, humanity as a whole is more advanced and better off than 100 years ago therefore these "vehicles" are a good thing."

Meanwhile, people with standards can actually differentiate between the positive use of petroleum and its derivatives and the greed from entities such as Total who were aware what role their products played in global warming as early as 1971, as well as throughout the 1980s yet promoted doubt regarding the science of global warming and tried to delay climate action.

 

[Colonel]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1744287213335015442

View: https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1744287213335015442

Glimpse of the future?

WorldTour Team Budgets 2023: A Glimpse into the Financial Powerhouses of Procycling - TheCyclingSonar

EDIT: Please see the 2025 update https://thecyclingsonar.com/blog/2025/07/12/worldtour-team-budgets-2025/The world of professional cycling is not only about riders conquering challenging terrains and sprinting to victory; it's also a complex business where budgets play a pivotal role in...

thecyclingsonar.com

So likely at best top 5 teams being able to catch up and afford it. In some not so distant future.

Marc Madiot calls for team budget caps as ‘Big Four’ dominate the WorldTour

Jumbo-Visma, UAE Team Emirates, Soudal-QuickStep and Alpecin-Deceuninck have won 73% of WorldTour races in 2023

www.cyclingnews.com

Who would have thought too much money in cycling became the real problem. Interesting and challenging times.

Jayco budget for 2024 is 34m

 

[yaco]

Jayco budget for 2024 is 34m

I knew that Alula has kicked in good money but I though the budget was around 24 or 25 million.

 

[Earns1985]

Bora for the tour:
Roglic
Hindley
Vlasov
Martinez
Sobrero
Denz
Danny van Poppel
Kämna (he will also go for the Giro GC)

 

[Remy55]

Visma-LAB with the worst climbing team of the big three.