Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[Berniece]

Nice 43rd place for Van Gils today. 👏

Well he crashed during AGR, had back pain

 

[SafeBet]

Best result in a WT one day race this year is still 9th by Jordi Meeus in Gent-Wevelgem...

 

[Brullnux]

Best result in a WT one day race this year is still 9th by Jordi Meeus in Gent-Wevelgem...

Bizarre to me they didn't go all in for Pidcock. Marketable figure, Red Bull connection, proven contender in hilly classics. Was his salary just too high or did he want a totally free role he couldn't get at Bora?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Best result in a WT one day race this year is still 9th by Jordi Meeus in Gent-Wevelgem...

It's still bizarre to me that they took away his UCI points, but didn't DQ him.

 

[Filippo_3467]

Yeah the GTs won't fix that. That's just straight up pathetic week in week out from one of the biggest budgets in the WT.

 

[CyclistAbi]

For sure GTs will fix it.

P.S. Van Gils crashed at Amstel and was riding with pain today so i don't see on how a demand to perform good is reasonable here. Some of you are just overacting and want instant results.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

For sure GTs will fix it.

P.S. Van Gils crashed at Amstel and was riding with pain today so i don't see on how a demand to perform good is reasonable here. Some of you are just overacting and want instant results.

Well, maybe they could have a second rider capable of Top 40. I‘m kind of being too harsh on them here because their best FW rider just didn‘t bother to show up and use the stomp which is a bit of a letdown.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Well, maybe they could have a second rider capable of Top 40. I‘m kind of being too harsh on them here because their best FW rider just didn‘t bother to show up and use the stomp which is a bit of a letdown.

Considering Maxim Van Gils finished 3rd at Flèche in 2024 season one can't exactly say it's unreasonable for the team to back him in this race. It's just that he crashed at Amstel and now rides injured, otherwise result would IMHO be much better, Martínez likely playing a role too. As for Rogla i agree that it's just not the same without Rogla, don't despair, coming soon!

 

[Filippo_3467]

I'm sorry but I just don't understand you making excuses left or right. Red Bull has after UAE the second highest budget yet they are performing really bad this year. I does not make a difference how good Roglic is and how much he wins when we look at the overall performance on the roster. UAE with the same budget is competitive in every race not just the ones Pogacar is starting. Jumbo and Lild-Trek are also better with a smaller budgets and are getting results from a lot of riders. They have a great classic squad, elite sprinters and GC guys (Lidl not for the GTs but overall solid), the can be succesful in breakaways, reduced sprints and so on.

If Roglic wins the Giro good for him and the team, but that changes nothing on the fair critique that the team is performing subpar. Not only in the classics, but also in multiple one weeks, sprints, the stopped winning from breakaways. Hindley for example got easily distanced on the first hard climb in the Alps from Seixas, Ciccone, Storer and Gall. Not really the best of the best. Vlasov without results. Outside of Lipowitz and the results of fosher-Black outside of europe there are no positive developments with in the team. So even the GC-focused part of the squad outside of Roglic is performing ok but not great. With some exceeding expectiations others not performing to their level.

The goal should be for Red Bull with this budget to be the second best team in the Ranking and being competitive in every WT race for a Top 5. They are also not winning outside of WT which is a bad sign for the quality of the second line of riders which are also getting relatively big contracts with a 50 million budget for the team.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Filippo_3467

It's not about making excuses i just pointed out some facts. To summarise, Red Bull didn't sign any classics superstar for this season so imminent results are not realistic. One could say it was expected more form Maxim but once it was explained a crash occurred and the rider is now riding injured there is no case to build here anymore. Heal first and onto new goals. Signing a classics superstar might clash with goals of wining GTs, so there is no rush here anyway, considering stage racing is now team main focus.

In regards to stage racing, Catalunya was won and GT season is only starting. You saying on how it doesn't really matter if the team wins a couple of GTs in the 2025, or not, on how this doesn't change anything. ... for sure it does.

Based on what i seen so far i feel that Jai is riding himself into some good form and i wouldn't dismiss Dani just yet. So if the signs are true they are where they need to be at this point of the season. We'll see at the Giro.

 

[acm]

It looks like some of you expected too much and you are now disappointed. RBBH has no superstar or favorite for the classics. Besides, the team needs time, UAE and Visma also didn't start winning right away. Be a little more patient.

 

[Filippo_3467]

Wow never thought that "RB is underperforming their budget" is such a controversial take. Bora is a WT Team since I think 2017. They were one of the best teams in cycling already in 2018/2019, they won the Giro 2022, won Roubaix, came on the podium in L-B-L, multiple Top-results in other Monuments, 4th in the Tour, multiple one-weeke stage race wins. Since the money flooded in they are performing worse as a team. I thought that wouldn't be controversial as we're simply debating facts you could see by going on PCS. In total they are at the places in the Ranking they always were since 2023 (5th to 7th) with the great results of Roglic. So the team outside of the superstar performs worse than expected. Hard to see why we have a discussion about this. But it is what it is. I'm moving on now from this discussion.

 

[Samamba]

It looks like some of you expected too much and you are now disappointed. RBBH has no superstar or favorite for the classics. Besides, the team needs time, UAE and Visma also didn't start winning right away. Be a little more patient.

They have a 40M budget, if not more. Of course they underperformed, even if you take into account the bad luck. Nothing to do with patience, no one was expecting them to win everything. Big difference between winning and barely making top 10s.

 

[SafeBet]

Pelizzari also looked good in Catalunya btw, but I wouldn't say he's obviously better than last year. Looking forward to his Giro tho.

You were right. According to Ciro Scognamiglio, he will ride the Giro.

 

[Mayomaniac]

You were right. According to Ciro Scognamiglio, he will ride the Giro.

I guess Sobrero is still not ready after that training crash (lost conciousness and orbital bone, cheekbone and nose fractures).

 

[CyclistAbi]

Wow never thought that "RB is underperforming their budget" is such a controversial take. Bora is a WT Team since I think 2017. They were one of the best teams in cycling already in 2018/2019, they won the Giro 2022, won Roubaix, came on the podium in L-B-L, multiple Top-results in other Monuments, 4th in the Tour, multiple one-weeke stage race wins. Since the money flooded in they are performing worse as a team. I thought that wouldn't be controversial as we're simply debating facts you could see by going on PCS. In total they are at the places in the Ranking they always were since 2023 (5th to 7th) with the great results of Roglic. So the team outside of the superstar performs worse than expected. Hard to see why we have a discussion about this. But it is what it is. I'm moving on now from this discussion.

Then again since as you say money flooded in they won GTs, week long stage races ... Currently they are lacking a bit in terms of classics, still that is reasonable, due to relatively young cyclists being debutants and as said some injuries involved. On top of that it's rather clear that their focus for the first half of the season is GT racing orientated and classics are currently more of a hobby project in regards to the team main objectives. Otherwise they would try to sign somebody like van der Poel instead of Roglič. They would likely, as a result, do great in classics but would lack in stage racing. Being an A team you have to be stage racing orientated and after winning the biggest stage races, spending as you say flood of money on winning classics, that is a bit unorthodox approach, isn't it?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Let me remind some of you Red Bull said publicly they will only start working on it starting the 2025 season, for them 2024 season was sabbatical. Rogla took it more seriously, though and won a couple of races. As a warm up for the 2025 season.

 

[acm]

I never said they are performing well. I was just trying to find reasons why they are not doing so well.

 

[Links2003]

Let me remind some of you Red Bull said publicly they will only start working on it starting the 2025 season, for them 2024 season was sabbatical. Rogla took it more seriously, though and won a couple of races. As a warm up for the 2025 season.

Yes, RBH is investing in the project for the long term or at least the medium term. That is why many riders with potential have been signed who have probably not yet reached their maximum performance. In addition, many new performance positions, nutrition, coaches etc. have been changed. Of course, this takes time. That's why RB has also made it clear that they want to create a top team and won't be one straight away.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter what happens this year. It simply means that not everything will go perfectly. That there will be setbacks. That not everything will lead directly to victories. But of course nobody in the team will be satisfied at the moment. After all, the team doesn't just have a few wins. In the end, a bit of luck is always part of it and which opponents are at the start. What is much more worrying is that not one driver plays a role in many races. Neither active in a promising breakaway group. Or in the fight for a top 10 place. This has now been completely missed in many races. Although many riders have achieved these placings several times in the last year. That's not just bad luck. And the reasons have to be found.

The team hardly delivers any results and does not play a decisive role overall. In the last few years, it was partly different. Remember how the team with Sagan tried to outsprint sprinters early on in stages. Or how the team acted when Hindley won the Giro. Offensive, active, extremely courageous.
The team is neither active, courageous nor successful. So something is not right at the moment. Because it's not just bad luck or tactics or a lack of coordination. Individually, the form of many riders doesn't seem to be right.

Of course it would help if Roglic and the team delivered at the Giro. But that can't hide the fact that there are massive problems at the moment. The future can be successful with the team, but I don't think such a severe setback was expected.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Whilst luck has played a factor with Van Gils crashing out of the Amstel Gold Race and subsequently still not at 100% for La Fleche Wallonne, the chances of the team pulling a rabbit out of the hat and saving their Spring at Liege-Bastogne-Liege this weekend look slim.

According to Sports Director Heinrich Haussler, the problem is actually quite simple. The riders just need time to settle after so many signings over the recent off-season. “We’ve got a lot of new riders who haven’t gelled yet. Because of that, they’re not riding as a cohesive unit,” he explained recently. “We’re also missing a true superstar - one of those marquee names. Laurence Pithie could become that one day, but it’s going to take a few more years.”

“It’s been a miserable spring" - Jan Bakelants raises questions over Red Bull - BORA - hansgrohe's Classics under-performance

There was a lot of hope and expectation for the Red Bull - BORA - hansgrohe team in 2025, especially in the Classics after the notable arrivals of star signings Maxim van Gils, Oier Lazkano, Jan Tratn...

cyclinguptodate.com

Just read this article and it emphasises on what we already discussed. Crash and an injury prevented Van Gils to achieve better results, as for the rest of the team, they will need time to develop into future stars, lack of a superstar prevents imminent fight for the win.

The team hardly delivers any results and does not play a decisive role overall. In the last few years, it was partly different. Remember how the team with Sagan tried to outsprint sprinters early on in stages. Or how the team acted when Hindley won the Giro. Offensive, active, extremely courageous.
The team is neither active, courageous nor successful. So something is not right at the moment. Because it's not just bad luck or tactics or a lack of coordination. Individually, the form of many riders doesn't seem to be right.

On stage racing side of things i feel that things are developed much further and hence just relax and enjoy this side of the team in months to come, that woudl be my advice. It has the qualities you seek for.

Of course it would help if Roglic and the team delivered at the Giro. But that can't hide the fact that there are massive problems at the moment. The future can be successful with the team, but I don't think such a severe setback was expected.

A bit of a setback at classics side of things, progress on where it comes to stage racing.

 

[CyclistAbi]

All in all if the team would utilise Rogla, then their spring classics campaign would likely look solid. Considering on what their main goal is, for the 2025 season, that would be a misjudgement IMHO, utilising Rogla in the wrong way. In the 2025 season Red Bull will mainly be judged by their performance at the Giro and the Tour and i am sure that some good results to follow in the second part of the season too.

 

[Filippo_3467]

Denz and Pellizarri will start at the Giro. That wasn't always the plan but with Sobbrero out (when i understand it correctly he will ride Romandie to come back after the crash but no Giro) the team needed reinforcements not just from the right rider types but also rider that can perform at a high level. You fortunately don't need as many roleurs in the Giro to do positioning in flat stages but Denz and Tratnik will be crucial. But also with this route it could be that RB has to control a lot and Denz and Pellizarri will be very important here.

The only selection I don't understand is Wandahl who will ride his first GT and adds nothing really important to a GC focused squad. Guys like can Poppel and Zwiehoff e.g. already that they can play there role over three weeks. Don't know if its already decided if Moscon rides the Tour he would have also been a great addition. Probably it won't make a big difference if all top domestiques stay healthy. Just a bit odd to see Wandahl in a squad that should support a GC favourite.

 

[acm]

Denz and Pellizarri will start at the Giro. That wasn't always the plan but with Sobbrero out (when i understand it correctly he will ride Romandie to come back after the crash but no Giro) the team needed reinforcements not just from the right rider types but also rider that can perform at a high level. You fortunately don't need as many roleurs in the Giro to do positioning in flat stages but Denz and Tratnik will be crucial. But also with this route it could be that RB has to control a lot and Denz and Pellizarri will be very important here.

The only selection I don't understand is Wandahl who will ride his first GT and adds nothing really important to a GC focused squad. Guys like can Poppel and Zwiehoff e.g. already that they can play there role over three weeks. Don't know if its already decided if Moscon rides the Tour he would have also been a great addition. Probably it won't make a big difference if all top domestiques stay healthy. Just a bit odd to see Wandahl in a squad that should support a GC favourite.

Denz has been planned for the Giro ever since Roglič decided to go. He skipped all the spring classics and I think he's also going to the Tour.
Wandahl's contract expires at the end of the season and I think I read somewhere he was promised that he would ride one grand tour this year. Although I completely agree with you, even Zwiehoff or young Herzog would be better in my opinion.

 

[Links2003]

The selection will probably be made from the following pool of drivers for the Giro:
ROGLIČ Primož, MARTÍNEZ Daniel Felipe, HINDLEY Jai, TRATNIK Jan, ALEOTTI Giovanni, WANDAHL Frederik, SOBRERO Matteo, PELLIZZARI Giulio, DENZ Nico

Rogla is clear, Aleotti too - he was also the only helper who was able to help Martinez on his way to second place in the mountains after Lipo's early DNS after illness. What can be expected from Martinez at the moment is of course questionable after his last performances. He is unlikely to become co-captain and it remains to be seen whether he will be enough of a helper in his current condition.
Pellizzari was not planned, but I think he will start after he rode very well for Roga in Catalonia. Denz is generally assigned to Roga, and Tratnik should also be a self-runner. These are the 2 riders for surface and positioning. Hindeley is in okay shape. Wandahl is indeed a bit questionable, but he was promised a GT after never being allowed to ride. Then Sobrero should probably drop out as he is probably not yet fully fit after the crash.

If Martinez were to drop out due to form problems, I don't see a suitable replacement. Perhaps a rider like Jonas Koch will then step in. He has completely different qualities, but at the moment he is also a bit of a stopgap and has ridden fewer classics than in recent years.

 

[MLKarlos]

The selection will probably be made from the following pool of drivers for the Giro:
ROGLIČ Primož, MARTÍNEZ Daniel Felipe, HINDLEY Jai, TRATNIK Jan, ALEOTTI Giovanni, WANDAHL Frederik, SOBRERO Matteo, PELLIZZARI Giulio, DENZ Nico

Rogla is clear, Aleotti too - he was also the only helper who was able to help Martinez on his way to second place in the mountains after Lipo's early DNS after illness. What can be expected from Martinez at the moment is of course questionable after his last performances. He is unlikely to become co-captain and it remains to be seen whether he will be enough of a helper in his current condition.
Pellizzari was not planned, but I think he will start after he rode very well for Roga in Catalonia. Denz is generally assigned to Roga, and Tratnik should also be a self-runner. These are the 2 riders for surface and positioning. Hindeley is in okay shape. Wandahl is indeed a bit questionable, but he was promised a GT after never being allowed to ride. Then Sobrero should probably drop out as he is probably not yet fully fit after the crash.

If Martinez were to drop out due to form problems, I don't see a suitable replacement. Perhaps a rider like Jonas Koch will then step in. He has completely different qualities, but at the moment he is also a bit of a stopgap and has ridden fewer classics than in recent years.

When everyone is in shape it is a very strong team for the Giro. Seems like the form of Martinez heads in the right direction after #7 in LBL.
Happy to see Pellizzari as a part of the team. I feel like Rogla will need him and Jai in the very high mountains.