Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[Peyroteo94]

Even if they laugh, it's the truth.

It's absurd to use Pogacar as an example for Remco in a Grand Tour. Pogacar had always finished first or second in the Tour de France and had won mountain stages every year.
Remco wasn't even in a position to win a stage against Vingegaard in 2024 because he was never able to keep his wheel in ANY mountain stage. How is that similar to Pogacar?

Furthermore, before the Liège crash, let's remember that Pogacar dominated Paris-Nice. Remco hasn't even dominated those one-week races, not against minor rivals, and certainly not against someone like Vingegaard.
In stage races, Remco has never had Pogacar's base level.

The comparison makes no sense. Given the impossibility of arguing this, it's best to laugh, but the races are there. They only have to remember that Remco's career in stage races is nothing like Pogacar's in his early years.

Spot on.
Remco can make a significant leap and he still won't be able to rival Vingegaard, let alone Pogacar.
His 2024 performance is so overrated, it's like saying Peraud or Pinot would win a TdF one day because they were only 8 minutes behind Nibali.
If Vingegaard races the Giro, Remco will not win a GT in 2026. Simple as that.

However Remco wasn't weaker than Vingegaard in Isola. In fact, he was slightly stronger. In all other mountain stages they raced against each other, Vingegaard shows he is at least 7-8 s/km faster (when he attacks). Huge difference.

 

[houtdffan]

Spot on.
Remco can make a significant leap and he still won't be able to rival Vingegaard, let alone Pogacar.
His 2024 performance is so overrated, it's like saying Peraud or Pinot would win a TdF one day because they were only 8 minutes behind Nibali.
If Vingegaard races the Giro, Remco will not win a GT in 2026. Simple as that.

However Remco wasn't weaker than Vingegaard in Isola. In fact, he was slightly stronger. In all other mountain stages they raced against each other, Vingegaard shows he is at least 7-8 s/km faster (when he attacks). Huge difference.

Superdouvley? Vingo had to be towed by WVA to keep from bleeding even more time to Remco. He tried to attack and ended up blowing himself up that day

 

[red_flanders]

Pogacar didn't make a leap, he was consistently improving.

inaccurate.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

On a stage in 2024 TdF? In the 2024 TdF I think Remco was even a little stronger than Vingegaard on stages 4 (Galibier) and 19 (Bonette/Isola). Jonas admitted he was on a bad day at Isola but that was still very impressive climbing from Remco late in the 3rd week.

In that Isola finish Vingegaard even thanked Remco for pulling him to the line. Here is a video of that - watch from 4'07".

2024 TdF finish Remco / Vingegaard

Of course Pogacar is on another level but we should not devalue what Remco showed that Tour. It showed what he is capable of.

Didnt he drop Remco and everyone else on the Galibier and just get clawed back on the flat?

 

[Cookster15]

Didnt he drop Remco and everyone else on the Galibier and just get clawed back on the flat?

Ah yes you are right. But I do think some here are underestimating Remco’s climbing ceiling based upon what we saw in the ‘24 Tour. He too was faster than Pantani’s record on Hautacam.

Yes Vingegaard was hampered by his April crash but Vingo still did his best ever climbing performance on Hautacam. So for Remco to be even close those days was impressive. Remco also briefly dropped Vingegaard on stage 20 before Pog countered. Only Jonas could stay close.

I am not a Remco fan, just calling it as I see it. But I do think we haven’t yet seen the best of Evenepoel in grand tours.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Ah yes you are right. But I do think some here are underestimating Remco’s climbing ceiling based upon what we saw in the ‘24 Tour. He too was faster than Pantani’s record on Hautacam.

Yes Vingegaard was hampered by his April crash but Vingo still did his best ever climbing performance on Hautacam. So for Remco to be even close those days was impressive. Remco also briefly dropped Vingegaard on stage 20 before Pog countered. Only Jonas could stay close.

I am not a Remco fan, just calling it as I see it. But I do think we haven’t yet seen the best of Evenepoel in grand tours.

Yeah Remco’s inconsistency in GTs and temperament probably cause some, perhaps me included, to underrate him. I do struggle with how to assess recent climbing performances. Everyone talks about Pogacar’s leap in performance, which isn’t wrong, but what’s glossed over is the fact that everyone leaped relative to previous wattage. Different degrees and coming from different baselines, sure, but leaps nonetheless. Do I think Remco is a better climber than Pantani because he beat his Pdb time by a minute while finishing 2:44 behind Pogacar? No way.

Do people really think Landa was significantly better in 2024 than, say, in 2015? I know he was about even with Pantani; do we really think in 2024 he had vaulted up to equal with Pantani, worlds ahead of the Contadors and Froomes who were still a class above Landa in 2015-2017 despite being past their prime? Or does something else explain it? (Not a clinic suggestion.)

Personally, I think Remco is very good, but I put more trust in gaps to competitors than in climbing times. 2:44 on a single climb is a big gap, so I have a hard time calling it one of the greatest climbing performances of all time, as some have, numbers be damned.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yeah Remco’s inconsistency in GTs and temperament probably cause some, perhaps me included, to underrate him. I do struggle with how to assess recent climbing performances. Everyone talks about Pogacar’s leap in performance, which isn’t wrong, but what’s glossed over is the fact that everyone leaped relative to previous wattage. Different degrees and coming from different baselines, sure, but leaps nonetheless. Do I think Remco is a better climber than Pantani because he beat his Pdb time by a minute while finishing 2:44 behind Pogacar? No way.

Do people really think Landa was significantly better in 2024 than, say, in 2015? I know he was about even with Pantani; do we really think in 2024 he had vaulted up to equal with Pantani, worlds ahead of the Contadors and Froomes who were still a class above Landa in 2015-2017 despite being past their prime? Or does something else explain it? (Not a clinic suggestion.)

Personally, I think Remco is very good, but I put more trust in gaps to competitors than in climbing times. 2:44 on a single climb is a big gap, so I have a hard time calling it one of the greatest climbing performances of all time, as some have, numbers be damned.

And what made Pogacar's run in PdB incredible was not beating Pantani's record (it wasn't a great record to be honest) but beating Pantani's record by 3 and half minutes.
Remco didn't gain a minute on Landa and was closer to the rest than Vingegaard/Pogacar.
We can't forget he lost 17 s/km after Vingegaard's attack. This is enormous.
I don't have any doubt, he needs to improve his 2024 level to win a GT in 2026 (and hope Vingegaard races the TdF).

 

[Berniece]

In 2023 he won Flanders and Lombardia and was 3rd in Worlds. 2024 he win LBL, Lombardia and Worlds on a more suitable course. I don't see that huge improvement, at least not in the most important results

Yeah just look at results, and not at the way he won those races...

It's absurd to use Pogacar as an example for Remco in a Grand Tour. Pogacar had always finished first or second in the Tour de France and had won mountain stages every year.

Who did that? [content deleted]

 

[pastronef]

Allan Peiper joins the team as Strategic Advisor to the Sports Department

Allan Peiper is making his comeback on the WorldTour stage: the experienced Australian takes on the role of Strategic Advisor within the Sports Department of Red Bull – BORA – hansgrohe.

www.redbullborahansgrohe.com

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Yeah Remco’s inconsistency in GTs and temperament probably cause some, perhaps me included, to underrate him. I do struggle with how to assess recent climbing performances. Everyone talks about Pogacar’s leap in performance, which isn’t wrong, but what’s glossed over is the fact that everyone leaped relative to previous wattage. Different degrees and coming from different baselines, sure, but leaps nonetheless. Do I think Remco is a better climber than Pantani because he beat his Pdb time by a minute while finishing 2:44 behind Pogacar? No way.

Do people really think Landa was significantly better in 2024 than, say, in 2015? I know he was about even with Pantani; do we really think in 2024 he had vaulted up to equal with Pantani, worlds ahead of the Contadors and Froomes who were still a class above Landa in 2015-2017 despite being past their prime? Or does something else explain it? (Not a clinic suggestion.)

Personally, I think Remco is very good, but I put more trust in gaps to competitors than in climbing times. 2:44 on a single climb is a big gap, so I have a hard time calling it one of the greatest climbing performances of all time, as some have, numbers be damned.

After posting this, this morning I saw this article, which reinforces what I mean. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wo...e-from-10-years-ago-luke-rowe-says-no-chance/

 

[Berniece]

After posting this, this morning I saw this article, which reinforces what I mean. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wo...e-from-10-years-ago-luke-rowe-says-no-chance/

Then the question is: how much better is UAE's equipment compared to other teams?

 

[Oldman]

Didnt he drop Remco and everyone else on the Galibier and just get clawed back on the flat?

Yes. That Slovenian guy not Pogacar had something to do with that.

Point being: getting to the top of the hill before someone doesn't mean much when you lose the sprint(s).

 

[Oldman]

Then the question is: how much better is UAE's equipment compared to other teams?

A close friend that specializes in aero testing review and TT setups says the difference is not that great between Colnago, Cervello and Specialized. Wheel and tire combinations are getting more important.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Yes. That Slovenian guy not Pogacar had something to do with that.

Point being: getting to the top of the hill before someone doesn't mean much when you lose the sprint(s).

The argument was that on Galibier Remco climbed better than Vingegaard; so who got to the top of the hill first matters. If Remco could have held on, he would have.

 

[Peyroteo94]

A close friend that specializes in aero testing review and TT setups says the difference is not that great between Colnago, Cervello and Specialized. Wheel and tire combinations are getting more important.

This inferiority complex (I would like to have another word but I can't find one better) about Pogacar is bliding people to the point they question how better Pogacar is due to equipment.
May I remind people, he won the TdF against Visma with zero relevant teammates?

 

[Cookster15]

Personally, I think Remco is very good, but I put more trust in gaps to competitors than in climbing times. 2:44 on a single climb is a big gap, so I have a hard time calling it one of the greatest climbing performances of all time, as some have, numbers be damned.

On those 2024 PdB times I think what everyone forgets was the effect of Matteo Jorgensen's huge 15 minute pull from the base of that climb. Jorgensen recorded the best 15-minute power output of his career during this period. Pog, Vingo and Remco all benefited from Matteo's huge pull. But that also means Remco did an amazing job for the remaining 28 minutes of the climb (for him).

Not sure how early Pantani attacked in 1998 but I doubt he had such a lead-out?

 

[Berniece]

This inferiority complex (I would like to have another word but I can't find one better) about Pogacar is bliding people to the point they question how better Pogacar is due to equipment.
May I remind people, he won the TdF against Visma with zero relevant teammates?

I’m just looking for a realistic explanation of Pogacar pre -2024 and post-2024, if you want to cash that an inferiority complex, then go ahead. It wasn’t me who started to discuss Pogacar in the RBH topic

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

After posting this, this morning I saw this article, which reinforces what I mean. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wo...e-from-10-years-ago-luke-rowe-says-no-chance/

I would not take what is said there at face value, for instance you can dig up old tour magazine test and see that the bikes from ~10 years ago were already close to what is on offer now .
Heck, the F8 on which thomas won his tour is actually marginally more aero than the F12, and lighter to boot, as for the tires the difference between a 2018 Yksion tubeless tire and a GP5000 S TR comes down to ~5 watts on the rolling resistance test, and i have little doubts that a tubular would be closer.
We hear a lot of ridiculous claims like that nowadays, see Nans Peter saying that he would be 5' slower on Armstrongs' bike up the Alpe than with his 2025 one... that would mean that if we were to give a 2000 bike to Vinge/pogacar for their 2022 alpe ascent, they would be slower than every winning time dating back to the 70's. This does not add up.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

After posting this, this morning I saw this article, which reinforces what I mean. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wo...e-from-10-years-ago-luke-rowe-says-no-chance/

If we're talking just the frame and nothing else, he'd win. Every single piece of equipment (tires, wheels, helmet, jersey, etc.), he'd lose

 

[saunaking]

I would not take what is said there at face value, for instance you can dig up old tour magazine test and see that the bikes from ~10 years ago were already close to what is on offer now .
Heck, the F8 on which thomas won his tour is actually marginally more aero than the F12, and lighter to boot, as for the tires the difference between a 2018 Yksion tubeless tire and a GP5000 S TR comes down to ~5 watts on the rolling resistance test, and i have little doubts that a tubular would be closer.
We hear a lot of ridiculous claims like that nowadays, see Nans Peter saying that he would be 5' slower on Armstrongs' bike up the Alpe than with his 2025 one... that would mean that if we were to give a 2000 bike to Vinge/pogacar for their 2022 alpe ascent, they would be slower than every winning time dating back to the 70's. This does not add up.

Bruyneel and his sidekick are bascially on board with Rowe's statement too.