Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[tobydawq]

The point i was making, was that he finished behind Almeida, while Almeida actually DID work for Pogacar on a near daily basis. So i would also put an in-form Almeida ahead of Landa as a GC rider. People were discussing Landa being a top 8 GC rider. I disagreed.

He is about to finish in the top 8 on GC on a GT for the 10th time. And recently did so in the Tour where the only top guy missing was Roglic, so I have a hard time understanding this conclusion.

 

[Valv.Piti]

He is about to finish in the top 8 on GC on a GT for the 10th time. And recently did so in the Tour where the only top guy missing was Roglic, so I have a hard time understanding this conclusion.

Ben O Connor and G. Thomas were missing, don't disrespect!!

 

[tobydawq]

Ben O Connor and G. Thomas were missing, don't disrespect!!

And Froome, of course.

 

[shadowrider]

I fear Lecerf doesn't have the biggest engine.

Although he has some talent in climbing and sprinting, he has not enough watts for climbing), not the explosiveness to become a toppuncher, not enough speed for a real sprinter. His future lies in joining (early) escapes. In a few years, he should be ready for winning stages and hilly semi-classics. In between helper in the mid-mountains during small stage races and GT's.

 

[shadowrider]

Except that it is.

I don't know which Tour you have been watching ? But it is not the first time that you see things other than the cycling experts. Not learning from your mistakes.
Landa is not the kind of rider as Majka, Kuss, Adam Yates, Ayuso etc. He is a "diesel". Not able to respond on punchy attacks. But he is the last teammate of the leader (cfr Evenepoel). The last teammate to bring bottles and food. The teammate riding just before or after the leader. Trying to come back after the strongest riders have attacked. Or controling the opponents (of course not always for the first place, but as during the Tour for the podium). Eventually helping the leader after the leader fades.

 

[Berniece]

I don't know which Tour you have been watching ? But it is not the first time that you see things other than the cycling experts. Not learning from your mistakes.
Landa is not the kind of rider as Majka, Kuss, Adam Yates, Ayuso etc. He is a "diesel". Not able to respond on punchy attacks. But he is the last teammate of the leader (cfr Evenepoel). The last teammate to bring bottles and food. The teammate riding just before or after the leader. Trying to come back after the strongest riders have attacked. Or controling the opponents (of course not always for the first place, but as during the Tour for the podium). Eventually helping the leader after the leader fades.

Logic never said this wasn’t the case. You are unnecessarily trying to pick a fight.

 

[Ulle97]

With Tour of Britain coming up, is this a race that Remco will try to win or will he ride in support of team mates. It is an unusual stage race for Remco to enter as there is no real GC stage that is similar to the GC stages we see it France, Italy and Spain.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

He is about to finish in the top 8 on GC on a GT for the 10th time. And recently did so in the Tour where the only top guy missing was Roglic, so I have a hard time understanding this conclusion.

There simply are other riders i put higher and i think if you bothered to read my reasoning, you would understand why. A top 8 GC rider who has been around for that long, and has been riding Vuelta's and Giro's, would definitely have won a GT. If you only look at his best results (top 10's of the last 5 years), you see he gets beaten time and again by riders that are not on everyone's mind when thinking about the very best. In the Tour there were 5 guys better including Almeida, in the '22 Giro there were two other guys better, Hindley and Carapaz. Last year in the Vuelta, there were two other guys better, Kuss and Ayuso. In the '19 TDF he finished behind Alaphilippe, Kruijswijk and Buchmann (and Thomas).

Finishing top 8 doesn't make you a top 8 GC rider, like i said. Arensman finished the Giro 6th twice and the Vuelta 5th. Where do you rank him? Or Mas, who has been 2nd in the Vuelta three times?

I also said it's very close and i don't really care about it that much. But if people need to feel offended by saying Landa isn't a top 8 GC rider, who am i to deny them the pleasure.

 

[tobydawq]

There simply are other riders i put higher and i think if you bothered to read my reasoning, you would understand why. A top 8 GC rider who has been around for that long, and has been riding Vuelta's and Giro's, would definitely have won a GT. If you only look at his best results (top 10's of the last 5 years), you see he gets beaten time and again by riders that are not on everyone's mind when thinking about the very best. In the Tour there were 5 guys better including Almeida, in the '22 Giro there were two other guys better, Hindley and Carapaz. Last year in the Vuelta, there were two other guys better, Kuss and Ayuso. In the '19 TDF he finished behind Alaphilippe, Kruijswijk and Buchmann (and Thomas).

Finishing top 8 doesn't make you a top 8 GC rider, like i said. Arensman finished the Giro 6th twice and the Vuelta 5th. Where do you rank him? Or Mas, who has been 2nd in the Vuelta three times?

I also said it's very close and i don't really care about it that much. But if people need to feel offended by saying Landa isn't a top 8 GC rider, who am i to deny them the pleasure.

Yeah, but Landa has also been better than a lot of the riders who have been better than him, so that reasoning doesn't really work.

You have to look at the current picture, and now he would certainly eclipse any of those you mention there.

Good point about Arensman, though, ignore everything I said...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yeah, but Landa has also been better than a lot of the riders who have been better than him, so that reasoning doesn't really work.

I'm not comparing top 20 to top 15 spots. I'm looking at top performances. And then i do not think you can put Landa above Yates, Carapaz, Thomas, Hindley, Almeida... and we're already beyond 8.

 

[tobydawq]

I'm not comparing top 20 to top 15 spots. I'm looking at top performances. And then i do not think you can put Landa above Yates, Carapaz, Thomas, Hindley, Almeida... and we're already beyond 8.

I also factor in the level of this year's Tour being much, much higher than anything we had ever seen before. Landa had a much higher level there than in the '22 Giro.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I also factor in the level of this year's Tour being much, much higher than anything we had ever seen before. Landa had a much higher level there than in the '22 Giro.

Sure, and it's nothing we can compare 1:1 because not everybody was there or in peak shape. So it's a feeling, that when the top 4 spots are clearly taken, that Landa isn't one of the next best "other" 4. Mind you that the discussion was about GC riders, not about climbers.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

Yates above Landa? Then we just look at the top perfomance ever, forget consistency. Tour 23 was great, for the rest as a GT racer Adam has been a failure more often than not. Include 1 week races and ok, Adam is ahead.
Carapaz over Landa? Actually I agree, depending on my mood a bit too. Carapaz of course hasn't had a GC result since 22 now, bad luck 23, Tour de Suisse crash and sickness before the Tour 24, but right now at the Vuelta Landa looks slightly stronger. I generally would rate Carapaz higher, but he has to show it with results again too.

There really is no fix top 8, after the top 4 it's a huge group, including Thomas (seems to have lost a step in 24 though) Mas, Hindley (pretty bad 24) Almeida etc etc. Right now Landa IMO can claim to be in these not so important top 8, as can Almeida, as can Mas (Vuelta consistency counts for something), people like Hindley and Carapaz might be better than him again in 25, but in 24? Landa. Carlos Rodriguez? IMO much more likely to win a GT than Landa, but again, 24 was a bit disappointing so far. Landa on the other hand has been very good in 23+24, with the Tour 23 the big deception. That might have been psychological after Mäder's death too. Give the man the respect he deserves. Hindley 22 was strong, but that was 2 seasons ago now, like everybody else he has to prove he still has it every year again. Failed in 24, Landa didn't. Landa ahead. So now I figured out the fix top 8: 1 Bilbao 2 Pogacar 3 Vingegaard 4 Roglic 5 Remco 6 Almeida 7 Mas 8 Carapaz. In case somebody disagrees with one of these, add Thomas, to be kicked in 25 of course.

As for Landa helping, there was nothing to help, if Remco wanted tempo Landa would have, but what for?As long as UAE or Visma work, not Landa's fault that he "didn't work" (Of course he still did, just not that visible)

 

[proffate]

The point i was making, was that he finished behind Almeida, while Almeida actually DID work for Pogacar on a near daily basis. So i would also put an in-form Almeida ahead of Landa as a GC rider. People were discussing Landa being a top 8 GC rider. I disagreed.

I meant that rhetorically. Like why would anyone argue with the point that Landa did crap-all. I understand why Landa is a topic of discussion. That said both of them are too inconsistent/incomplete to finish a GT in the position their best case climbing would suggest. Kind of hard to determine who's more inconsistent.

 

[proffate]

He is about to finish in the top 8 on GC on a GT for the 10th time. And recently did so in the Tour where the only top guy missing was Roglic, so I have a hard time understanding this conclusion.

Anything past the podium is somewhat less indicative of GT ability. Not only are there helpers sacrificing themselves when they could have finished 4th, but if you are in 6th place pretty much no one is paying attention to you or ambushing your team in transition stages or in crosswinds. You're just along for the ride as the top 3 conspire against each other.

Landa has all of 2 GT podiums in 22 tries. Basically anyone who has gotten at least second in a GT in the last ten years is a better GT racer. That list is pretty long. If you value top 8s so much then even Carlos Rodriguez is better because he's never finished outside of the top 8 in three tries, soon 4.

 

[KoopaCycling]

With Tour of Britain coming up, is this a race that Remco will try to win or will he ride in support of team mates. It is an unusual stage race for Remco to enter as there is no real GC stage that is similar to the GC stages we see it France, Italy and Spain.

Depends on how he is feeling i guess. I mean he has won stage races without big mountains in them before. He obviously has the engine to win. It will depend on his form.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

With Tour of Britain coming up, is this a race that Remco will try to win or will he ride in support of team mates. It is an unusual stage race for Remco to enter as there is no real GC stage that is similar to the GC stages we see it France, Italy and Spain.

Which teammate do you supposed has more chances than him? It's a peculiar stage race. First three stages are hilly with some opportunities for gaps and offensive riding, last three stages seem boring sprinter stages. Imho he should try and go for it in the first stages, he always gets better by racing hard. I have never seen him sit in the bunch as if it were training. I guess he could always do some work in the last three stages for Magnier.

 

[Berniece]

Which teammate do you supposed has more chances then him? It's a peculiar stage race. First three stages are hilly with some opportunities for gaps and offensive riding, last three stages seem boring sprinter stages. Imho he should try and go for it in the first stages, he always gets better by racing hard. I have never seen him sit in the bunch as if it were training. I guess he could always do some work in the last three stages for Magnier.

Alaphilippe should be better suited for this

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Stage 2 looks very suitable for a 50 km solo.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Alaphilippe should be better suited for this

If it were 2019, i'd agree. I also think he gets better from racing hard.

 

[will-10]

With Tour of Britain coming up, is this a race that Remco will try to win or will he ride in support of team mates. It is an unusual stage race for Remco to enter as there is no real GC stage that is similar to the GC stages we see it France, Italy and Spain.

Unfortunately it's a very poor route again, but I expect Remco to cook something up. Stage 2 is likely tougher than it appears on paper given national level races we've had on these circuits, so will likely be the GC day. The Sheffield day on stage 3 is hideous compared to the "what if" terrain on offer.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Look how incompetent bora can be at times, if I was remco I only do the transfer if I am absolutely certain that what bora can offer in performance is much better than quickstep

In Bora there are many cooks for the broth, bad tactics, weird DS decisions. In quickstep total tranquility, absolute leader status, full focus.

 

[Oldermanish]

Look how incompetent bora can be at times, if I was remco I only do the transfer if I am absolutely certain that what bora can offer in performance is much better than quickstep

In Bora there are many cooks for the broth, bad tactics, weird DS decisions. In quickstep total tranquility, absolute leader status, full focus.

Bora has ridden very well for him this Vuelta. The DS decisions went sideways when they relied on other teams to maintain a gap to O'Connor's break. Then the whole field pretty much bonked.
Quickstep has one leader, for sure. How will Landa finish and who will shepherd him there?

 

[Berniece]

If it were 2019, i'd agree. I also think he gets better from racing hard.

He was pretty good in San Sebastián though. How good does he need to be for Tour of Britain

 

[hayneplane]

Which teammate do you supposed has more chances than him? It's a peculiar stage race. First three stages are hilly with some opportunities for gaps and offensive riding, last three stages seem boring sprinter stages. Imho he should try and go for it in the first stages, he always gets better by racing hard. I have never seen him sit in the bunch as if it were training. I guess he could always do some work in the last three stages for Magnier.

If he is on decent form he should be able to win The Barnsley-Sheffield stage solo.