Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Berniece]

For sure it's the combination of Rogla and the team, just like it was at JV, and this will show more and more. Didn't you at some point in time cheer for Remco to sign with Visma? What changed in that regards?

I didn’t mind the merger between the two teams, and I just want Remco to ride for a team that will get the best out of him. I don’t believe that’s SOQ.

 

[KoopaCycling]

So you agree Remco would take some heat for it, leaving SOQ, by not doing that and staying loyal he avoided it and that was the right decision. You hence don't agree Remco will take any heat for it if leaving SOQ once the contract is up. Well, best to wait and see.

Had he left 2 years ago, yes he would have taken heat.
If he leaves amicable this year, or when his contract is up. Very few people would be bringing pitchforks.
Entirely different situations.

 

[AlpRaid]

But he needs an injury free couple of years for accumulation volume, can't keep doing rebuild cycle.

This 100%.

It is really crazy how much time he has missed or races that have been thwarted by illness, crashes, or being in recovery mode.

Many here allude to wanting him to improve his results and have more on his palmares.

He is already 46th all-time over at PCS at age 25.

There is a really good chance that -- should he remain fairly healthy from now on -- he will be top ten, maybe even top 5.

He just happens to be in the era of Pog (who will likely end up 1 or 2 on that list). He is also racing in an era where climbing is prioritized over every other skill in GC racing (not that he would beat Vingo or Pog if there were 100 kms of flatish ITT, but he would be much more in the conversation).

Also Pog "raised his ceiling" astronomically between 2023 and 2024 at age 25 but that coincided with a period of no injuries (very important) and perfect training and prep. Remco always seems to be "catching up" after the latest "disaster".

 

[Red Rick]

As much as you can argue he's a victim of the era of GT routes, he's really not a victim of his era. If anything the modern emphasis on aerodynamics over power and the aerodynamics of modern TT bikes and road bikes are why he thrives in the first place.

 

[AlpRaid]

As much as you can argue he's a victim of the era of GT routes, he's really not a victim of his era. If anything the modern emphasis on aerodynamics over power and the aerodynamics of modern TT bikes and road bikes are why he thrives in the first place.

no.

have there been aero advances? sure. but when ITTs are 13 kms long and ridden over 50 km/hr differences are measured in seconds.

watts/kg is all that matters in GC riding nowadays and the place where that has an effect is on climbs (that are consistently chosen today if deemed unusually steep).

as I said, he would not beat vingo nor pog even with 100 kms of ITT, but (again as I said) he would be much more in the conversation.

he beat Pog by almost 3 minutes in a 48 km ITT at the worlds in Glasgow.

lots of variables, of course, but you put 100 kms of flattish ITT in a GT and Remco is much more in the battle with the other two. it would actually make the races exciting.

 

[Berniece]

no.

have there been aero advances? sure. but when ITTs are 13 kms long and ridden over 50 km/hr differences are measured in seconds.

watts/kg is all that matters in GC riding nowadays and the place where that has an effect is on climbs (that are consistently chosen today if deemed unusually steep).

as I said, he would not beat vingo nor pog even with 100 kms of ITT, but (again as I said) he would be much more in the conversation.

he beat Pog by almost 3 minutes in a 48 km ITT at the worlds in Glasgow.

lots of variables, of course, but you put 100 kms of flattish ITT in a GT and Remco is much more in the battle with the other two. it would actually make the races exciting.

Or give him 2 seasons without crashing and see where he stands then

 

[Unchained]

As much as you can argue he's a victim of the era of GT routes, he's really not a victim of his era. If anything the modern emphasis on aerodynamics over power and the aerodynamics of modern TT bikes and road bikes are why he thrives in the first place.

Remco can beat 99.9% of the population, @50% of all bike racers on a second hand beach bike with 26in balloon tires and a big basket on the front filled with groceries and beer!!
First mental, financial and physical pitfall made by amateurs is thinking that equipment is significant.
The motor and mind this little man possesses are super human. Guy needs to be told his lungs or legs didn't fall out on the road. The pain he can push through and his physical and mental gifts are extraordinary!
Sure the elite can exploit marginal gains, equipment being some for sure. And all the things you mentioned have made him better and faster..but even a loose claim that he is great because he occurred during aero era is incorrect. The guys at the top of the sport are special, despite the equipment not because of it.
I would say that the pain threshold of most top pros is a singular significant difference.. It's the thing that separates many with same or similar physical, physiological abilities, Remco and many others reject body signals that are literally saying, stop you are going to die, you are killing yourself. They learn that it's not true, that the sensation that your heart or legs are going to explode are just feelings you work with.
Many of your points are 100% valid, but even through science you can develop body and bike to go faster and further, but the mental baseline these guys have, work on developing is the true separation.

 

[AlpRaid]

also it is simply a matter of mathematics/physics.

if everyone is more aero, then the ITT speeds are all faster (which they are).

if everyone is traveling at higher speeds there is less ability to make big time differences. that is a simple mathematical fact.

when you then double down and lessen GT ITT distances by anywhere from 60-75% from what they used to be, there is even less time to be gained in being hugely aero if everyone can go above 52 km/hr.

long gone are the times when pure climbers were eliminated from GT contention by the first flat 60 km ITT where they could lose 4-6 mins.

I understand why this was done, or at least the intention behind it: keep more riders in contention as long as possible. I don't think it really succeeds, quite honestly, but I understand the logic behind it. however, it has ultimately altered the focus of GT riding (and probably led to quite a few eating disorders).

pog, vingo, remco, and rog are really the only complete all rounders for GTs, with Pog and Vingo the better climbers.

ayuso may make it there -- maybe even as soon as this giro (though I hope not).

btw, I am pulling for anyone but rog and ayuso to win the giro. however, I also realize that either one of these would frankly make the most sense and would be most logical.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Starvation camps with Vingegaard. Remco wouldn't survive them.

Eating only cardboard Jonas?

 

[CyclistAbi]

I didn’t mind the merger between the two teams, and I just want Remco to ride for a team that will get the best out of him. I don’t believe that’s SOQ.

Fair point. You just want the best for your boy.

Well, if Remco really desires to join Red Bull – BORA – hansgrohe the way you want him to join, then IMHO he will join in the future. As for what Remco really wants or plans to do, if not sooner, he will do that till the 2027 season.

 

[houtdffan]

no.

have there been aero advances? sure. but when ITTs are 13 kms long and ridden over 50 km/hr differences are measured in seconds.

watts/kg is all that matters in GC riding nowadays and the place where that has an effect is on climbs (that are consistently chosen today if deemed unusually steep).

as I said, he would not beat vingo nor pog even with 100 kms of ITT, but (again as I said) he would be much more in the conversation.

he beat Pog by almost 3 minutes in a 48 km ITT at the worlds in Glasgow.

lots of variables, of course, but you put 100 kms of flattish ITT in a GT and Remco is much more in the battle with the other two. it would actually make the races exciting.

depending on the route, he could beat an in form Pog in a gt. Just need a 1992 or a 2012 TDF route

But the dumb DWEEB Gouvenou has a fatal allergy to the ITT (so does Guillen). Prudhomme will not replace him for reasons unknown

 

[red_flanders]

... If anything the modern emphasis on aerodynamics over power and the aerodynamics of modern TT bikes and road bikes are why he thrives in the first place.

Given the aero advantage of his body, I would guess quite the opposite is true. If everyone’s bikes were less aero, his advantage in this regard would be greater.

That said, no rider who is dominant now wouldn’t be in any other era. Talent is talent.

 

[AmRacer]

depending on the route, he could beat an in form Pog in a gt. Just need a 1992 or a 2012 TDF route

But the dumb DWEEB Gouvenou has a fatal allergy to the ITT (so does Guillen). Prudhomme will not replace him for reasons unknown

Pogi and Jonas beat Remco in hilly / mountain ITT.

 

[Red Rick]

That said, no rider who is dominant now wouldn’t be in any other era. Talent is talent.

I 100% disagree with this. Sports change, which means the physiological requirements change. Training changes as well, and adaptation to new training changes are pretty individual too.

 

[Red Rick]

Pogi and Jonas beat Remco in hilly / mountain ITT.

I'm okay if they put in 2 flat 60K TTs. Evenepoel would take an entire minute in the first one, then he'd drop 2 the next MTF. And he then probably wouldn't even take a minute in the second ITT anymore if it's in the 3rd weekend.

 

[Peyroteo94]

You put a route like 2012 and Pogacar still beats Remco quite easily. You are not a threat when you lose 1 and half minute in every MTF.

 

[Red Rick]

You put a route like 2012 and Pogacar still beats Remco quite easily. You are not a threat when you lose 1 and half minute in every MTF.

Realistically, 2012 didn't have the type of MTF to even lose 1'30 on.

But it did have Madeleine-Glandon-Toussuire so that would be a massacre.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Realistically, 2012 didn't have the type of MTF to even lose 1'30 on.

But it did have Madeleine-Glandon-Toussuire so that would be a massacre.

It is true but we had stages very tough that ended in a descent (Col de Peyresourde's stage). There is also the stage to Peyragudes where Pogacar could gain minutes if he wanted.
There is no other way for Remco. He needs to be a lot closer in the mountains, if he can't, there is no route to save him in the Tour.

 

[Berniece]

You put a route like 2012 and Pogacar still beats Remco quite easily. You are not a threat when you lose 1 and half minute in every MTF.

Is Pogacar always going to be so lucky that Evenepoel crashes in April and has a bad preparation for the TDF? Or are we just ignoring that piece of context on why he lost that much time on a MTF?

 

[Red Rick]

Is Pogacar always going to be so lucky that Evenepoel crashes in April and has a bad preparation for the TDF? Or are we just ignoring that piece of context on why he lost that much time on a MTF?

He was 7th in the Dauphine, and apart from Isola he was closer to Almeida than to Vingegaard on the MTFs, who had an even worse preperation.

 

[AmRacer]

Is Pogacar always going to be so lucky that Evenepoel crashes in April and has a bad preparation for the TDF? Or are we just ignoring that piece of context on why he lost that much time on a MTF?

If Remco stays healthy from now on, he should be in top shape for TdF.

 

[Berniece]

He was 7th in the Dauphine, and apart from Isola he was closer to Almeida than to Vingegaard, who had an even worse preperation.

What does his performance in Dauphine have to do with it? I'm just saying that he didn't have a decent preparation at all for the TDF. And more importantly, he's been off the bike far longer than any other rider of "the big 6" due to crashes.

I find it ridiculous to think this doesn't have an influence on his performances in GT's, and how heigh his ceiling is.

 

[Red Rick]

What does his performance in Dauphine have to do with it? I'm just saying that he didn't have a decent preparation at all for the TDF. And more importantly, he's been off the bike far longer than any other rider of "the big 6" due to crashes.

I find it ridiculous to think this doesn't have an influence on his performances in GT's, and how heigh his ceiling is.

It is a data point of level at given time. And 7th in the Dauphine, winning the ITT, when taking into account illness is hardly the worst possible prep. TdFs have been won on less. Pogacar was 4th in the 2020 Dauphine, dropping 1'30 on the MTF. Vingegaard got beaten in breakaways in the 2021 Dauphine. Etc.

 

[houtdffan]

Pogi and Jonas beat Remco in hilly / mountain ITT.

I'm talking a route like the 80s/90s/early 2000s with 2 very long flat ITTs

 

[red_flanders]

I 100% disagree with this. Sports change, which means the physiological requirements change. Training changes as well, and adaptation to new training changes are pretty individual too.

Sure, adaptations to training are individual. What you say isn’t wrong. But I said “dominant“ riders. That isn’t really going to change. The big talents are always a level above.

And my larger point wasn’t at all about training, it was about whether aero bikes were going to give Remco more or less an advantage. Seems clear to me it’s less.

And despite the real advantages in bike aerodynamics, it’s still a relatively minor factor compared to the rider. The rider’s CDA is a MUCH larger factor than the bike’s.