Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Berniece]

To read the race and the group. His physiology is much better suited for a finale like today than Vingegaard's is, but he worked harder for zero gain.

But what did he do wrong?

 

[AmRacer]

But what did he do wrong?

He wasn't with Tadej and Jonas

 

[Netserk]

But what did he do wrong?

Chose a wrong position, and chose to move up too late. Chose to spend his energy to bridge across and pull his rivals. Chose not to spend any in an attempt to take time.

His opponents were with him, not in the peloton. It didn't matter if they gained time at the finish to the bunch, only what they gained on each other. Pulling hard gave 6 and 10 seconds to them. It's not a one-day race, so he should be fine with getting caught by the peloton if the alternative is that he spends too much energy to keep them away. The harder he worked, the more the others could afford to save themselves (as they rightly didn't care about the gap).

 

[fenns]

I thought the way he crossed the gap to JV/Pog/MVDP was very impressive. I wouldn't be worried about the sprint.

 

[Salvarani]

Sometimes you also need the brain to race. And unfortunately maybe Remco didn’t have it today.

It doesnt add up when they were on the front and wanting to be in a good position.

They, Trek and Visma were the most visible teams going into the final lap.

I find it strange that they would suddenly call it a day and sit up during the final lap. "Job done". Right before the finale.

While knowing Visma were still keeping Vinge in the front and Pog right behind him with two teammates, going into the final hill. Especially with knowing how they had just ridden it the time before.

I find it much more plausible that he struggled with the fight at the front on the descent. Going at high speed on the narrow and twisty roads. That he fell back and lost position again, which we have seen before. His teammates had to sit up, as it would be no point in them being there anymore. Probably they were looking for him.

He must have ridden the climb very well to come back to the front right on time that he could attack to close the gap right as they had just gone off.

This was obviously not the plan though. The plan was to try and keep him at the front close to Vinge and Pog, so he wouldnt have to do the above.

Then to pull them to the line to get bonus seconds... but chapeu for being a racer and good entertainer.

 

[Netserk]

I thought the way he crossed the gap to JV/Pog/MVDP was very impressive. I wouldn't be worried about the sprint.

As a prep race, it's fine to test the legs rather than saving as much energy as possible, but the problem is that he worked too much after he bridged, and that it was foreseeable. The more he allows others to lean on him, the quicker others will begin to lean on him in the future.

 

[Oldman]

So, Mathieu is of no use then for Remco.

You've concocted an argument with yourself. My perspective is what his team could gain with sponsorship which might lead to a contract for Remco that would keep him there. Mathieu led everyone out today. Two guys took advantage of the lead out.
One didn't.
Mathieu could definitely tow a small break with Remco clear of almost any pursuing field. It's still always up to the team #1 to finish the job.

 

[Oldman]

Sometimes you also need the brain to race. And unfortunately maybe Remco didn’t have it today.

He was at limit when it counted and made the move. In a GC battle that could have amounted to significant time on the field. He didn't sit and expect his Doms to bring back that break.
This is also his first race back for awhile so judging anyone by today's results is indulgent speculation. Enjoy it but it looks to be chaotic until the last stage. Let's hope!

 

[Extinction]

Come on man, own up that he didn't get the timing right, nor have the speed of Tadei. From a fan.

 

[AmRacer]

You've concocted an argument with yourself. My perspective is what his team could gain with sponsorship which might lead to a contract for Remco that would keep him there. Mathieu led everyone out today. Two guys took advantage of the lead out.
One didn't.
Mathieu could definitely tow a small break with Remco clear of almost any pursuing field. It's still always up to the team #1 to finish the job.

Mathieu had two choices, pull and trying to win or letting the peloton catching them.

 

[Berniece]

Chose a wrong position, and chose to move up too late. Chose to spend his energy to bridge across and pull his rivals. Chose not to spend any in an attempt to take time.

As if he chose that position, they were forced out of it, so he had to move up after the climb. He had to bridge across. He didn’t have to work in that group, but he had a decent sprint and thought he could win. Which is fair after beating WVA, and almost winning AGR. I don’t even know where you think he could’ve taken time when everyone was working together.

 

[Netserk]

As if he chose that position, they were forced out of it, so he had to move up after the climb. He had to bridge across. He didn’t have to work in that group, but he had a decent sprint and thought he could win. Which is fair after beating WVA, and almost winning AGR. I don’t even know where you think he could’ve taken time when everyone was working together.

He said that he believed that it was going to be a bunch sprint and that attacks wouldn't stick, right? Sounds like the problem was a matter of cognition.

 

[KoopaCycling]

He said that he believed that it was going to be a bunch sprint and that attacks wouldn't stick, right? Sounds like the problem was a matter of cognition.

And he would have been right had he chosen not to bridge the gap himself, then drag pogacar &co for a full km pull at times in the final 5 km to stay ahead of the chasing peloton. Should not have jumped, stayed in the belly of the peloton and just let the sprinters take the bonies. And if he did jump, not have pulled pogacar & co like that but allowed the peloton to come back. it 's fun and all but it only is good when you actually win.

I like fun racing, but it has come to a point where the peloton and his rivals know they can eat remco's plate first. and that just ain't good. He needs to get smarter fast in these situations when racing the other aliens. These tactics work against most of the rest of the peloton. But not again MVDP, Pogacar, Vingegaard.

 

[Karl Merckx]

He said that he believed that it was going to be a bunch sprint and that attacks wouldn't stick, right? Sounds like the problem was a matter of cognition.

he was right though, without him the attack wouldn't have sticked.

 

[Berniece]

He said that he believed that it was going to be a bunch sprint and that attacks wouldn't stick, right? Sounds like the problem was a matter of cognition.

I didn’t read that, and like others said he was the one that made the break successful. He thought he had a chance of winning, you should take such a chance if you like racing and have a winners mentality.

 

[Berniece]

The rumour is that the man formerly known as fatco has increased his 30 minute power by 40(!!?) watts.

Big if true.

What about his 1 hour effort?

 

[Netserk]

I didn’t read that, and like others said he was the one that made the break successful. He thought he had a chance of winning, you should take such a chance if you like racing and have a winners mentality.

He's not a stage hunter but a GC rider, right? Winning mentality is about winning the GC.

 

[Berniece]

He's not a stage hunter but a GC rider, right? Winning mentality is about winning the GC.

Winning is winning, he wants it all. You think these 10s will decide who wins? We know how much better Pogacar and Vingegaard are. Winning this stage and then losing the GC would’ve been better than losing the stage and losing the GC

 

[Netserk]

Winning is winning, he wants it all. You think these 10s will decide who wins? We know how much better Pogacar and Vingegaard are. Winning this stage and then losing the GC would’ve been better than losing the stage and losing the GC

If you have a winning mentality, you do what you can to win (the GC). Every second counts, and the GC situation before the mountain stages matter for how they are ridden.

 

[Berniece]

If you have a winning mentality, you do what you can to win (the GC). Every second counts, and the GC situation before the mountain stages matter for how they are ridden.

We’ll agree to disagree, I don’t see any issue with his actions, and don’t feel it will have an influence on the final standing.

 

[scribers]

I enjoyed remco pointing to vingo where he needed to stay and to pull

 

[KoopaCycling]

I enjoyed remco pointing to vingo where he needed to stay and to pull

well, vingegaard prob. wasn't aware having never done so before.

 

[dobrien]

We’ll agree to disagree, I don’t see any issue with his actions, and don’t feel it will have an influence on the final standing.

Big fan of Remco's here (he's probably my favorite WT rider) but for me there's just a little bigger picture in play... I don't have the seemingly photographic memory of someone like Libertine for example, so I can't recite all the specific times I've seen this, but it just seems there are too many times I'm looking at the screen and yelling "What the heck are you doing riding so far back?!?!" As far as yesterday goes, in the micro-view it's not the end of the world (though I believe that was a winnable stage for him), but in the larger picture imho he just cannot afford to be spending energy needlessly like that; yes, he looked REALLY sharp closing that gap, but how much better would it have been to have that bullet to fire in the sprint instead?

So much of success in ANY endeavor in life is about good habits, and he unfortunately seems to have this bad habit of drifting back/losing position/etc where I just don't see Pog or Ving having those issues. I understand he lost some ground going downhill as well so there is that to factor in but it doesn't negate the fact he was out of position right at a moment when anyone thinking clearly can see the race was at the front, and that's where he needed to be; perhaps as you suggest not the end of the world, but in the larger picture, if he is going to compete with the very very tippy top guys in GC he simply can't afford to be giving that energy away for no reason other than inattentiveness or questionable decision making. Yes, he was able to bridge up but that just as easily could have been the race going up the road and POOF! GC over for him before it starts. Just my .02 of course

Again, just to be clear, I love the guy and am VERY pumped to see him looking so sharp; I do believe he is going to surprise us all in the next 2 months, just a little frustrating to watch at times. Anyway, onward Remco!

 

[Berniece]

Big fan of Remco's here (he's probably my favorite WT rider) but for me there's just a little bigger picture in play... I don't have the seemingly photographic memory of someone like Libertine for example, so I can't recite all the specific times I've seen this, but it just seems there are too many times I'm looking at the screen and yelling "What the heck are you doing riding so far back?!?!" As far as yesterday goes, in the micro-view it's not the end of the world (though I believe that was a winnable stage for him), but in the larger picture imho he just cannot afford to be spending energy needlessly like that; yes, he looked REALLY sharp closing that gap, but how much better would it have been to have that bullet to fire in the sprint instead?

So much of success in ANY endeavor in life is about good habits, and he unfortunately seems to have this bad habit of drifting back/losing position/etc where I just don't see Pog or Ving having those issues. I understand he lost some ground going downhill as well so there is that to factor in but it doesn't negate the fact he was out of position right at a moment when anyone thinking clearly can see the race was at the front, and that's where he needed to be; perhaps as you suggest not the end of the world, but in the larger picture, if he is going to compete with the very very tippy top guys in GC he simply can't afford to be giving that energy away for no reason other than inattentiveness or questionable decision making. Yes, he was able to bridge up but that just as easily could have been the race going up the road and POOF! GC over for him before it starts. Just my .02 of course

Again, just to be clear, I love the guy and am VERY pumped to see him looking so sharp; I do believe he is going to surprise us all in the next 2 months, just a little frustrating to watch at times. Anyway, onward Remco!

I agree with everything you wrote. But positioning doesn't have anything to do with "big brain moves", which the discussion was about. Netserk found Evenepoel wasn't riding very smart, while I didn't see an issue there. Positioning on the other hand, is still an issue. What I find frustrating is that the team nor Evenepoel actually sees this as a problem. They don't feel he has a positioning issue, even though we've seen it already twice now this season (LBL and here), and he barely raced.

Just like he supposedly doesn't have a bike handling or cornering issue. Even though he lost a lot of time on every decent last year in the TDF, and his gravel performance was average. So don't think I don't see any issues with him, there are definitely some key skills he needs to improve and develop on.

 

[dobrien]

I agree with everything you wrote. But positioning doesn't have anything to do with "big brain moves", which the discussion was about. Netserk found Evenepoel wasn't riding very smart, while I didn't see an issue there. Positioning on the other hand, is still an issue. What I find frustrating is that the team nor Evenepoel actually sees this as a problem. They don't feel he has a positioning issue, even though we've seen it already twice now this season (LBL and here), and he barely raced.

Just like he supposedly doesn't have a bike handling or cornering issue. Even though he lost a lot of time on every decent last year in the TDF, and his gravel performance was average. So don't think I don't see any issues with him, there are definitely some key skills he needs to improve and develop on.

For me the positioning thing is a combination of 'intelligence' (intuitively understanding where he needs to be, on the fly in a fast moving situation), 'attentiveness' (not falling asleep at critical moments in the race) and also a function of other parts of the course (ie, out of position because he lost time on a descent and was still in the process of moving up, for example). I'm not too worked up about him riding once he got into the break (that's a separate debate, do you bluff, force Mathieu to ride, etc), my principle problem yesterday is there is (imho) no universe in which you are not right up front with Pog, Ving, MVDP at the crest of that climb; that's where the race was, end of story, and if he is to compete for the top step at the Tour he simply can't afford to be giving up energy this way.

Anyway, we're pretty close on this stuff, I agree with the rest of your post; he's got some stuff to solve.