Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[red_flanders]

Hopefully Remco wasn't just messing with us and didn't have something else in mind.

No idea what that means.

Just read:

João Almeida "is better than someone like Remco Evenepoel" - Can Tour de Suisse winner contest Tour de France podium?

Tadej Pogacar, Jonas Vingegaard and Remco Evenepoel will be taking the spotlight at this year's Tour de France overall classification battle, but it would be naive to think that no-one else has a chan...

cyclinguptodate.com

Don't think it's unreasonable to speculate on how strong Almeida might be in the Tour, Remco hasn't had a great year and Almeida has.

[off topic content deleted]

 

[Berniece]

Hopefully Remco wasn't just messing with us and didn't have something else in mind. Just read:

João Almeida "is better than someone like Remco Evenepoel" - Can Tour de Suisse winner contest Tour de France podium?

Tadej Pogacar, Jonas Vingegaard and Remco Evenepoel will be taking the spotlight at this year's Tour de France overall classification battle, but it would be naive to think that no-one else has a chan...

cyclinguptodate.com

Well Almeida was impressive but the competition wasn’t in Suisse. I think he’ll ride top 5 in the TDF. He won’t be able to beat Evenepoel, and can’t hide behind “I’m a domestique”, because he’ll barely be able to do work for Pogacar. Or not the type of work that will have much of an impact on his own result.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Well, Almeida has won 3 of the top 7 one-week stage races this year; Remco has won 0 in his career. Having said that, I think Almeida has timed his chances for winning better than Remco.

 

[red_flanders]

Well, Almeida has won 3 of the top 7 one-week stage races this year; Remco has won 0 in his career. Having said that, I think Almeida has timed his chances for winning better than Remco.

I personally expect to see another level of Remco at the Tour, and Almeida will be someone constrained by team duties, but you're on point. Almeida has been riding exceptionally well this year, at another level than any previous.

I can see any number of scenarios where he gets on the podium, but it will be a challenge to best an unfettered Remco.

Well Almeida was impressive but the competition wasn’t in Suisse. I think he’ll ride top 5 in the TDF. He won’t be able to beat Evenepoel, and can’t hide behind “I’m a domestique”, because he’ll barely be able to do work for Pogacar. Or not the type of work that will have much of an impact on his own result.

It's a fair point about the competition, but without the advantage some of the lesser riders got on the first stage (?), he'd have been ahead by minutes. He destroyed everyone in that uphill TT.

Evenepoel hasn't looked that strong all year. Still expect another level, but I don't think Remco for the podium is any kind of slam dunk.

 

[Berniece]

Evenepoel hasn't looked that strong all year. Still expect another level, but I don't think Remco for the podium is any kind of slam dunk.

I don’t take Dauphine as a reference after his fall and his allergies. If he says he’s better than last year I don’t see anyone good enough to challenge him for third place except maybe Roglic in best form.

 

[red_flanders]

I don’t take Dauphine as a reference after his fall and his allergies. If he says he’s better than last year I don’t see anyone good enough to challenge him for third place except maybe Roglic in best form.

I hope you're right.

 

[peterfin]

I don’t take Dauphine as a reference after his fall and his allergies. If he says he’s better than last year I don’t see anyone good enough to challenge him for third place except maybe Roglic in best form.

The fact that he was furious on himself shows that he expected to do a lot better based on his altitude performance. I still expect him to repeat his podium spot without bad luck.

 

[Breh]

You are being overdramatic. In fact I think he needs to avoid Pogacar and Vingegaard and target the Giro. Del Toro will improve and will probably be a better climber in a very near future.
But Remco can win a Giro and avoid this Tour obsession.

He has 1 participation in 6 seasons as a pro, going on 2 out of 7. He races classics and 1week races, went to La Vuelta and Il Giro twice.

Hardly a Tour obsession.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The fact that he was furious on himself shows that he expected to do a lot better based on his altitude performance. I still expect him to repeat his podium spot without bad luck.

I have a different view on this. I think he isn't furious about his disappointing performance, I think he realised he is not closing the gap at all to his main rivals, specially Pogacar.
Even if he said the opposite, I hope the crash he had, took something from him and didn't let him perform at his best. If not, I can see a scenario where he collapse due to a mental blow (no teammates around him, Pogacar and Vingegaard being even more unreachable).

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Honestly, all the pessimistic takes make sense on paper, but then I remember Remco crashed hard last year in March and looked terrible in June at the Dauphine then showed up in great form in July…

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Indeed. Such unfunded, most of the time slurs, tend not to help. One can quickly educate oneself that fat shaming tends to be counterproductive. So if a bit of fat would really be the problem, fat shaming wouldn't resolve it in any meaningful way.

Some teams, for example, were pouring diesel into gasoline engines. Once that was addressed, now flying. A bit of fat on the plus or minus side, that seems to made no difference whatsoever.

You sure those hypothetical teams aren't using nitrogen instead of diesel or gasoline if weight doesn't matter too much? None of what we discuss or say here as any impact, positive nor negative, as i doubt these riders are reading this forum for guidance. But i think it is hard to argue against watts per kg when discussing climbing potential/performance. And it's also hard to disagree that a rider of 1m71 weighing 64kg, is simply not going to be anywhere close to the weight needed to be competitive against this generation of competitors. Especially when for instance one of those competitors is taller and weighs 58kg. I for one am happy at least Evenepoel himself seems to have understood that much and that he shouldn't throw in the towel because of what some here keep referring to as "his different build". Whether that will prove to be enough to ever beat the best, remains to be seen, but at the very least he can say he tried. His build didn't stop him from winning the Vuelta relatively skinny (and become WC RR right after) or finishing on the podium of the TDF relatively skinny (and become double Olympic champion right after). We already know how he preforms when he doesn't (or can't) manage his weight. Like Tirreno 2022, or Valencia 2022, or Dauphiné 2024... So maybe it's not so much fat shaming as it is pointing out the obvious.

 

[Berniece]

I have a different view on this. I think he isn't furious about his disappointing performance, I think he realised he is not closing the gap at all to his main rivals, specially Pogacar.
Even if he said the opposite, I hope the crash he had, took something from him and didn't let him perform at his best. If not, I can see a scenario where he collapse due to a mental blow (no teammates around him, Pogacar and Vingegaard being even more unreachable).

If you don’t perform as expected, why would you be able to close the gap? His team still thinks he is able to be as good as them in TDF. So Remco will too

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Logic-is-your-friend

Personally i don't buy the theory on how Remco is too fat and if he would only shred a kilo or two on how much difference that would make. IMHO Jonas took it too far and it's affecting his performance. So reaching some target weight, on when you feel comfortable, that is that and more then enough, after that it becomes moot, can even affect you negatively.

Real problems, IMHO, lack of team focus on GC, especially after losing Landa. Without Landa they are around half way there, dedicated toward GT GC. So either this improves or better to search elsewhere, more GT GC focused environment. Or i guess indeed, to give it up and focus more on your biggest strengths, although at 25 it's IMHO too soon to think like that. If you can win the Tour, you have to try.

Some kids and stable GT GC orientated environment, without the fat shaming and lack of doms.

 

[jmdirt]

He has 1 participation in 6 seasons as a pro, going on 2 out of 7. He races classics and 1week races, went to La Vuelta and Il Giro twice.

Hardly a Tour obsession.

Of the five he missed I only remember one that Lefevere purposely had him skip. Were the other four on purpose too, or were there other reasons?

He can be TdF obsessed and not race a single one due to many circumstances.

He seems GT obsessed (EDIT: while still having some other big wins!) even if it isn't TdF centered.

 

[jmdirt]

You sure those hypothetical teams aren't using nitrogen instead of diesel or gasoline if weight doesn't matter too much? None of what we discuss or say here as any impact, positive nor negative, as i doubt these riders are reading this forum for guidance. But i think it is hard to argue against watts per kg when discussing climbing potential/performance. And it's also hard to disagree that a rider of 1m71 weighing 64kg, is simply not going to be anywhere close to the weight needed to be competitive against this generation of competitors. Especially when for instance one of those competitors is taller and weighs 58kg. I for one am happy at least Evenepoel himself seems to have understood that much and that he shouldn't throw in the towel because of what some here keep referring to as "his different build". Whether that will prove to be enough to ever beat the best, remains to be seen, but at the very least he can say he tried. His build didn't stop him from winning the Vuelta relatively skinny (and become WC RR right after) or finishing on the podium of the TDF relatively skinny (and become double Olympic champion right after). We already know how he preforms when he doesn't (or can't) manage his weight. Like Tirreno 2022, or Valencia 2022, or Dauphiné 2024... So maybe it's not so much fat shaming as it is pointing out the obvious.

Unfortunately I am unable to see the post that you are replying to, but IMO, pointing out that a racer has too much weight (fat and/or muscle) to stay with his competitors going uphill who have maintained a lower weight is not fat shaming. Without knowing his body fat percent, I would contend that we are muscle shaming him (which will bring me right back to what I have already typed too many times already about living closer to race weight).

*Obviously we are talking power to weight (W/kg), not just purely weight.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

@Logic-is-your-friend

Personally i don't buy the theory on how Remco is too fat and if he would only shred a kilo or two on how much difference that would make. IMHO Jonas took it too far and it's affecting his performance. So reaching some target weight, on when you feel comfortable, that is that and more then enough, after that it becomes moot, can even affect you negatively.

Do you also believe the earth is flat?

Yes, there is such a thing as taking it too far. For Vingegaard, one could say he has been walking a very fine line and he could do well with a but more of a buffer, a safer margin, as he had none at that weight. Someone like Paret-Peintre is very much in the same boat, maybe even crossing that line. Nobody is expecting or even hoping that. But Vingegaard already won the TDF twice and Paret-Peintre never will regardless of how much he weighs.

One or two kg wouldn't make much of a difference you think? You realise you can factually calculate how much of a difference this makes? Assuming you can still lose 2kg fat or upper body muscle (so your power output remains the same) without risk of getting sick, that comes down to about 1 minute per ~30 minutes of climbing. Not taking into account accumulated fatigue from previous climbs where you already have been pushing harder to match the pace of skinnier climbers. Take that over a 3 week GT and enlighten us about how it would not make much of a difference.

 

[red_flanders]

The use of the term "fat-shaming" is as much a non-starter here as the use of "ageism" is on another thread. Neither term remotely applies in elite cycle sport.

Discussing a rider's weight is an obvious and normal part of evaluating their abilities and prospects. I like this thread, I would hate to see it turn into the inane back and forth we see on other threads. Can I ask a favor of the regular contributors and and beg that we please stop engaging with such nonsense? Pretty please??

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Logic-is-your-friend

You can't honestly believe that a kilo more or a kilo less of difference in weight is the main factor separating Remco for winning or not winning the Tour? If there won't be further progress made then IMHO some risk will need to be taken and to possibly change environment. Knowing, there are no guarantees that new environment will be beneficial. In general, a more GT GC focused environment could prove to be beneficial. But obviously there is risk involved too, no guarantees. Either that or for SOQ to ramp it up on when it comes to GT GC racing, as currently i don't feel they are all that serious in that.

@red_flanders

Each time i read this thread, majority is fat orientated, on the other hand if one will educate oneself, on how effective such strategy in general is, well, it isn't. As for ageism, was proven to be unfunded, past half a decade no ifs, ands, or buts involved. So that is that. Fat shaming in regards to Remco highly likely on the same path to oblivion. Read that as unfunded and counterproductive.

 

[AmRacer]

@Logic-is-your-friend

You can't honestly believe that a kilo more or a kilo less of difference in weight is the main factor separating Remco for winning or not winning the Tour? If there won't be further progress made then IMHO some risk will need to be taken and to possibly change environment. Knowing, there are no guarantees that new environment will be beneficial. In general, a more GT GC focused environment could prove to be beneficial. But obviously there is risk involved too, no guarantees. Either that or for SOQ to ramp it up on when it comes to GT GC racing, as currently i don't feel they are all that serious in that.

@red_flanders

Each time i read this thread, majority is fat orientated, on the other hand if one will educate oneself, on how effective such strategy in general is, well, it isn't. As for ageism, was proven to be unfunded, past half a decade no ifs, ands, or buts involved. So that is that. Fat shaming in regards to Remco highly likely on the same path to oblivion. Read that as unfunded and counterproductive.

Who has been old the last decade? G? Froome? Nairoman?

 

[CyclistAbi]

@AmRacer

I don't understand your question and i somehow feel it's off topic anyway. More appropriate question, i assume, likely to be who was fat in the last decade. Froome? Now that is likely much more in line with the current debate.

Interestingly Merckx was racing with around 10kg more.

 

[AmRacer]

@AmRacer

I don't understand your question and i somehow feel it's off topic anyway. More appropriate question, i assume, likely to be who was fat in the last decade. Now that is likely much more in line with the current debate.

Interestingly Merckx was racing with around 10kg more.

Fat? G? Froome?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Fat? G? Froome?

I mean Remco is lighter weight. So.

 

[AmRacer]

I mean Remco is lighter weight. So.

But he's shorter? So height / weight ratio?

 

[CyclistAbi]

But he's shorter? So height / weight ratio?

Height shaming now, c'mon guys. The point is Remco doesn't weight much more then Jonas and less then Rogla and Pogi. Believing the key here is to further drop the weight, IMHO delusions. If further progress is to come in regards to GT GC it will come from other areas, not by lowering weight.

 

[Berniece]

Interestingly Merckx was racing with around 10kg more.

That’s because there is no one like Merckx