Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Berflamand]

FYI, I'm not frustrated, are you?

A little bit yeah, I was stapling but the staples in my stapler have just run out and I don't have any reserves. It's quite frustrating to be honest.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Always funny when you base your opiniond on Ifs. Actual facts don't matter (of course they don't matter. Let's forget his performance in the Tour).
Lipowitz is the third best GT rider and not Almeida unfortunately.
Next year, I think Del Toro will be the third best GT rider. Happy? Let's see if you will not cry again next year and maybe those who will laugh won't be you and who the hell agrees with you.

Lipowitz wasn't climbing on Evenepoel '24 level and even got dropped by Onley who he barely kept behind, he also lost with a bigger gap than Evenepoel in '24. Also Lipo is a worse TT'er which kind of matters in GC's. Del Toro? Let's see. having to duke it out (and lose) with Carapaz and Yates surely isn't enough to convince me at this moment.

1. No
2. Also No
3. See above

1. No
2. Yes
3. See above

 

[James M]

My father is stronger than your father guys so everyone just relax..Jesus christ reading these last two pages.

 

[AmRacer]

My father is stronger than your father guys so everyone just relax..Jesus christ reading these last two pages.

No diffrece from the last 1390 pages

 

[YavorD]

Lipowitz wasn't climbing on Evenepoel '24 level and even got dropped by Onley, he also lost with a bigger gap than Evenepoel in '24. Also Lipo is a worse TT'er which kind of matters in GC's.

Well, but if Remco can reach that level/result only once in 9 (or okay, 5) GT's, then (reasonable) logic says that this result/level is more likely to be an outlier than his true level/ability.
And if we can classify certain result as an outlier, than the person who produced it can't be judged on that result/level.

 

[Berniece]

Well, but if Remco can reach that level/result only once in 9 (or okay, 5) GT's, then (reasonable) logic says that this result/level is more likely to be an outlier than his true level/ability.
And if we can classify certain result as an outlier, than the person who produced it can't be judged on that result/level.

It'll only be an outlier if Evenepoel consistently keeps on crashing every season over and over again.

 

[James M]

But as fans, we can hope, imagine and even believe in scenarios where Remco might be able to come out on top and become the better rider. You can call that wishful thinking but we are still allowed to hope and dream about such scenarios even if they seem far fetched at the moment.

Agree. Its wildly wishful thinking for anyone whos watch the races but theres nothing wrong with hoping and dreaming as a fan of Evenepoel at the same time, even if it's far-fetched at the moment. I completely agree with this take, hoping for it is fair, hes supremely talented. Another thing is presenting it as fact and plausible when the reality is very obvious clear atm that its leagues apart and a whole other question should be the topic in reality.

 

[YavorD]

It'll only be an outlier if Evenepoel consistently keeps on crashing every season over and over again.

Considering the last 3 years, it's an outlier now.
And it won't be an outlier if he actually confirms it (even the Almeida way with some 1 week wins).

We can't pick a single result and assess riders true level on it. As far as the GT's go, 6-9 (2-3 years) is the more accurate way to assess rider's level/position in the imaginary GT standing IMO.

 

[Berniece]

Considering the last 3 years, it's an outlier now.
And it won't be an outlier if he actually confirms it (even the Almeida way with some 1 week wins).

We can't pick a single result and assess riders true level on it. As far as the GT's go, 6-9 (2-3 years) is the more accurate way to assess rider's level/position in the imaginary GT standing IMO.

I agree, but it's silly to only look at results and not the whole picture. But I understand that if he consistently keeps crashing or getting sick, the outlier is actually staying upright and having a decent prep, which means that can't be used as the standard, since it barely happens.

 

[YavorD]

I agree, but it's silly to only look at results and not the whole picture. But I understand that if he consistently keeps crashing or getting sick, the outlier is actually staying upright and having a decent prep, which means that can't be used as the standard, since it barely happens.

What exactly is the whole picture then?
Ability? Fair enough.
But isn't the most important ability - availability?
Or in cycling terns, being able to finish a GT healthy, without crashes or going through the preparation unhurt.
And if a rider doesn't have this ability how exactly can we rate him?
Evenepoel doesn't even have a win in big one week races.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The gap between pogi 2023 and pogi 2024 was also too big.

Pogacar already had a gap to Evenepoel at that time, it just increased in 2024.

 

[Berniece]

What exactly is the whole picture then?
Ability? Fair enough.
But isn't the most important ability - availability?
Or in cycling terns, being able to finish a GT healthy, without crashes or going through the preparation unhurt.
And if a rider doesn't have this ability how exactly can we rate him?
Evenepoel doesn't even have a win in big on week races.

Yes, I agree

 

[Peyroteo94]

I don't really understand all the back-and-forth between the Remco fans and Pogi fans and the apparent frustration of Pogi fans regarding claims made in this thread.

I don't think anybody (not even Berniece) is actually saying or believing that Remco is a better rider overall than Pogacar.

But as fans, we can hope, imagine and even believe in scenarios where Remco might be able to come out on top and become the better rider. You can call that wishful thinking but we are still allowed to hope and dream about such scenarios even if they seem far fetched at the moment.

If you get frustrated about certain claims and want to gloat that it never has happened and never will happen and even want to throw around generic insults about Remco's fanbase, I suggest you simply ignore this thread.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, just wanted to add this regarding the last few pages of this thread.

Sorry, you are not right. No one here said Remco is better than Pogacar but they said Remco is equal to Pogacar in classics or even close. They are not. Remco fans can believe whatever they want, everyone is able to dream and maybe in the future, he can close the gap but don't pretend some Remco fans just do this. They claim things completely away from reality, ignoring facts.
This is why they often get disappointed because their beloved rider cannot match their expectations.
Someone saying Remco is equal with Pogacar in classics is wrong. Maybe in the future he can be, not now! So you are trying to defend some guys for absolutely no reason. Just take a look in this thread before the Dauphine, before the AGR and FW and you will see some of the most crazy posts ever in this forum.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Agree. Its wildly wishful thinking for anyone whos watch the races but theres nothing wrong with hoping and dreaming as a fan of Evenepoel at the same time, even if it's far-fetched at the moment. I completely agree with this take, hoping for it is fair, hes supremely talented. Another thing is presenting it as fact and plausible when the reality is very obvious clear atm that its leagues apart and a whole other question should be the topic in reality.

Thank you James. This post should be fixed here, specially the bold part.

 

[Berniece]

Some pictures from the recon today

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Pogacar already had a gap to Evenepoel at that time, it just increased in 2024.

That's true. But Evenepoel's numbers during the TDF '24 are better than most if not all of Pog's numbers prior to '24. So while Evenepoel has been improving towards '24, Pog suddenly blew off. Had Pog continued to improve at the same rate he was improving prior to '24 instead, Evenepoel might have been close last year. Point is, if Evenepoel is able to make a similar improvement as Pog did in '24, then he might be a contender as well. As it stands, there is quite a gap to overcome. A year or two without major injury would be a good start though.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Well, but if Remco can reach that level/result only once in 9 (or okay, 5) GT's, then (reasonable) logic says that this result/level is more likely to be an outlier than his true level/ability.
And if we can classify certain result as an outlier, than the person who produced it can't be judged on that result/level.

He also won the Vuelta, and so far Lipowitz has yet to win a Vuelta or reach that level twice. So at least Evenepoel has finished 2 GT's as a top contender. But suddenly Lipowitz, who only finished on the podium once is supposedly better because Evenepoel needs to show consistency which Lipowitz has not.

Oink.

 

[YavorD]

.He also won the Vuelta, and so far Lipowitz has yet to win a Vuelta or reach that level twice. So at least Evenepoel has finished 2 GT's as a top contender. But suddenly Lipowitz, who only finished on the podium once is supposedly better because Evenepoel needs to show consistency which Lipowitz has not.

Oink.

I never said tha Lipowitz is clear 3rd, did I?
Also, 2022 was 3 years ago. How long until we stop considering 2022 as objective measurement for the GT rankings nowadays?

 

[AmRacer]

That's true. But Evenepoel's numbers during the TDF '24 are better than most if not all of Pog's numbers prior to '24. So while Evenepoel has been improving towards '24, Pog suddenly blew off. Had Pog continued to improve at the same rate he was improving prior to '24 instead, Evenepoel might have been close last year. Point is, if Evenepoel is able to make a similar improvement as Pog did in '24, then he might be a contender as well. As it stands, there is quite a gap to overcome. A year or two without major injury would be a good start though.

Might, if, but,....

 

[Krzysztof_O]

To me it's clear that Roglic has been the 3rd best GT rider in the last few years. Maybe he's declining so it's hard to say now and establish clear hierarchy behind the top2. There are also other guys, like Almeida.

 

[Berniece]

I never said tha Lipowitz is clear 3rd, did I?
Also, 2022 was 3 years ago. How long until we stop considering 2022 as objective measurement for the GT rankings nowadays?

Can we use TDF 2024 though?

 

[peterfin]

Pogacar already had a gap to Evenepoel at that time, it just increased in 2024.

It increased a lot in 2024. Pogacar increased his w/kg efforts by 10% and his recovery is now out of this world. The difference between Remco from LBL 2022 to the giro 2023 (covid exit) and Pogacar 2023 was much closer. However I do think Remco can still close the gap if he is at his peak and in one-day races he is already close.

 

[AmRacer]

Can we use TDF 2024 though?

Everyone who gets 3rd at the Tour.

 

[YavorD]

Can we use TDF 2024 though?

Not in 2027, I don't think so. Nowadays 2024 is still relevant.

 

[kingjr]

As I've posted before, if I haven't miscounted, Remco had 89 GT stages under his belt coming into this year's TdF. Tadej's 89th GT stage was stage 5 of the Tour 2023. He has come a long way since then. Of course, that doesn't mean Remco can do the same just like that, but we also can't say for certain that he won't hit another level in the next few years. Certainly his TT is the best it ever was right now.