Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Netserk]

And luckily we now have clear proof that Evenepoel's performance in Burgos was superb.

So how close was it (in %) to the best performances in the Vuelta over the same duration?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You're blinded when it comes to Remco.

I'm not, but i'm sure you'll score some points with certain people with such a remark.

I simply said the GC field in Burgos was better than it was in the two GT's i mentioned, and i stand by that. 2019 Pogacar was not nearly the 2020 version, and the fact that an 85 year old managed to finish ahead of him kind of proves that, however people like to hype Valverde's performance. Even if you would disagree with the statement, i could not see how making the claim would be cause for mockery unless you are a disingenuous troll (and to be clear, i'm not saying you are). Burgos had an insanely strong GC field, aking to a 1 week stage race of top caliber. I never claimed all competitors were in top form, neither are they in every GT (hence my TDF example), but like i already mentioned, the importance of the race grew exponentially due to cancellations left and right because of Covid, with riders trying to please teams and teams trying to please sponsors with few opportunities left to do so. As you also noted, everybody came in hot because of that. On top of that, we have Evenepoel setting a new climbing record on Picon Blanco, in case people still needed to be convinced of the level of his performance.

Now please, tell me again how i'm blinded when it comes to Remco by making these arguments.

So how close was it (in %) to the best performances in the Vuelta over the same duration?

I don't know, neither did i claim such.

 

[Netserk]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1288870310532517894

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1288870310532517894

https://twitter.com/x/status/1288917066863566855

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1288917066863566855


Compare that with:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1170749626342944771

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1170749626342944771


Being generous, try to guess the difference without taking in to account the tailwind for the former.

Spoiler: Answer to the diffference in VAM based estimation of power [DrF]

Remco: 5.96 W/kg for 25'32''
Roglič/Valverde: 6.24 W/kg for 26'11''

Relative difference: 4.6 %

 

[Netserk]

For additional context:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1203783968203722752

View: https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1203783968203722752

 

[Netserk]

Now tell me more about how the field was stronger in Burgos, lol.

 

[Red Rick]

For additional context:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1203783968203722752

View: https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1203783968203722752

Think Moncalvillo is slightly better. Similar performance, much closer in altitude. Don't think it's that great for W/kg comparing that directly, but Rogl has dropped higher VAMs on sub 8% climbs.

Having said that, not sure it's too fair on Evenepoel have a sample size of 1 to gauge climbing potential. But a VAM difference of ~100 is still quite massive.

Not sure what Evenepoels W/kg in the first 2 Giro weeks were. I rate San Giacomo higher for Evenepoels climbing than Picon Blanco tbh.

2 weeks until Picon Blanco in La Vuelta.

 

[tobydawq]

I'm not, but i'm sure you'll score some points with certain people with such a remark.

I simply said the GC field in Burgos was better than it was in the two GT's i mentioned, and i stand by that. 2019 Pogacar was not nearly the 2020 version, and the fact that an 85 year old managed to finish ahead of him kind of proves that, however people like to hype Valverde's performance. Even if you would disagree with the statement, i could not see how making the claim would be cause for mockery unless you are a disingenuous troll (and to be clear, i'm not saying you are). Burgos had an insanely strong GC field, aking to a 1 week stage race of top caliber. I never claimed all competitors were in top form, neither are they in every GT (hence my TDF example), but like i already mentioned, the importance of the race grew exponentially due to cancellations left and right because of Covid, with riders trying to please teams and teams trying to please sponsors with few opportunities left to do so. As you also noted, everybody came in hot because of that. On top of that, we have Evenepoel setting a new climbing record on Picon Blanco, in case people still needed to be convinced of the level of his performance.

Now please, tell me again how i'm blinded when it comes to Remco by making these arguments.


I don't know, neither did i claim such.

Because you claim things like "the field is strong, hence we can deduce something from his performance because of that". Then you scour the start list of good riders and include a lot who ended up not featuring at the business end of the race, thus making them completely irrelevant but inflating your argument. That's my problem.

And yes, Valverde was very, very good in the Vuelta 2019. If you can play the "he set a fastest time somewhere", so can I (edit: and I now see that Netserk can too). Valverde and Roglic were pure rockets on some stages, the times showed that. And Pogacar was insane as well if much less consistent than he has grown up to become.

I'm not saying that Remco wasn't stellar in Burgos, and I too think that he would have won the Giro last year without his crash. But it certainly didn't have anything to do with Valverde being in the Burgos race when he was pack fodder, whether or not that name makes the start list shine more brightly.

But okay, if you only want to look at and compare the GC credentials of given start lists, be my guest. That, however, would be an exercise in futility given that it doesn't really matter how many stars are present in a race if they are not performing well.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Now tell me more about how the field was stronger in Burgos, lol.

Now tell me more about how that Vuelta stage had echelons in the final before the climb and was raced so hard that favorites completely blew out the back, lol.

Did... i do that right, Netserk? Or maybe you didn't see the actual Burgos stage or don't think that had an impact on performance? Pre-race favorites who were quite lively two days later, on Lagunas de Neila, like Sosa, Gaudu, Kuss... who were completely nowhere on Picon Blanco. Might that have had anything to do with it? What do you think?

Because you claim things like "the field is strong, hence we can deduce something from his performance because of that". Then you scour the start list of good riders and include a lot who ended up not featuring at the business end of the race, thus making them completely irrelevant but inflating your argument. That's my problem.

I didn't claim "the field is strong", i said the GC field was stronger than that of the 2019 Vuelta and 2020 Giro. It's an opinion. I didn't claim that those riders were all in top shape as they would be during an actual GT. I should actually hope not, considering the big names were supposed to ride GT's later. But apparently it's normal to make the "claim" that the big names weren't trying or weren't in top form, but obviously, Evenepoel wàs in top shape, right? In this discussion we don't extend him the same curtsy, the benefit of the doubt that he was in fact not at the top of his ability at that point. Clearly Carapaz, Landa, Yates etc, they were just building form, but Evenepoel he had actually made Burgos his main season objective, isn't that right?

No, that's not right. So Netserk coming here with another attempt to steer the discussion away from the actual point i was making, and completely ignoring the context of the race, the context of the stage, the context of covid... but hey, i'm the one inflating my arguments and going completely bonkers when it concerns Evenepoel. The irony, that you were the one telling me i was being far too cautious with my expectations going into 2019, while you had him already pegged as your favorite to win that San Juan (a year before he actually did). Yes, i'm the one with the double standards. And i certainly did not use his climb record of Picon Blanco as proof that the field was better at Burgos, as you and Netserk try to make it out, simply that, even if you don't agree that the field was stronger, that his climbing time alone was proof of how well he could climb. But again, taken out of context.

But maybe we should retrace our steps and see what i actually DID say that brought us here, and in what context i said that. Rick asked whether Evenepoel's climbing fame was based on hype or on actual performances. To which i responded "Probably about 99% of what happened on the road. Burgos had a stacked field due to Covid erasing most other races, it was a stronger GC field than the 2019 Vuelta or the 2020 Giro. It became one of the most important 1 week races of 2020 because of the heavily adjusted calendar. There was no ITT for him to take advantage of like in Algarve or BBT, and yet he absolutely smashed it." How dare i state facts like the names of actual participants after people painted me as some lunatic for making that post. Sorry, lol again, obviously.

Yesterday you asked me why i engage people like Rackham. I didn't engage, i simply responded to his post, like i try to do for everyone who enters a discussion with me in a normal way. Believe me, i much rather enter a discussion with someone who is biased against Evenepoel, than enter a discussion with people who are biased against me, and can't seem to make an argument without trying to make it about me, because that's a discussion you can't win. So, take a look around, and tell me what you think. Sure, i'll respond to Rackham. No problem. Can't say the same for others. When i claimed DQT was negligent with Evenepoel's coaching which was a factor with him crashing, people verbally attacked me. Same guy now calls me indecent because i respond to his posts. When i "dared" to state i thought Evenepoel was intrinsically a better climber than Almeida, a guy made a new account to tell me i was the dumbest fool he had ever seen, or something along those lines. People who troll discussions, don't get a fraction of the scrutiny my posts are put under. I make the above post, and well, you can read. So i think my time is coming to an end here. I really don't need this.

 

[Salvarani]

Yeah, it must be everyone's else's fault. Maybe time to look within at some point.

Again, keep me out of this. Dont include me in your discussion or trying to make/start an argument.

 

[tobydawq]

Now tell me more about how that Vuelta stage had echelons in the final before the climb and was raced so hard that favorites completely blew out the back, lol.

Did... i do that right, Netserk? Or maybe you didn't see the actual Burgos stage or don't think that had an impact on performance? Pre-race favorites who were quite lively two days later, on Lagunas de Neila, like Sosa, Gaudu, Kuss... who were completely nowhere on Picon Blanco. Might that have had anything to do with it? What do you think?


I didn't claim "the field is strong", i said the GC field was stronger than that of the 2019 Vuelta and 2020 Giro. It's an opinion. I didn't claim that those riders were all in top shape as they would be during an actual GT. I should actually hope not, considering the big names were supposed to ride GT's later. But apparently it's normal to make the "claim" that the big names weren't trying or weren't in top form, but obviously, Evenepoel wàs in top shape, right? In this discussion we don't extend him the same curtsy, the benefit of the doubt that he was in fact not at the top of his ability at that point. Clearly Carapaz, Landa, Yates etc, they were just building form, but Evenepoel he had actually made Burgos his main season objective, isn't that right?

No, that's not right. So Netserk coming here with another attempt to steer the discussion away from the actual point i was making, and completely ignoring the context of the race, the context of the stage, the context of covid... but hey, i'm the one inflating my arguments and going completely bonkers when it concerns Evenepoel. The irony, that you were the one telling me i was being far too cautious with my expectations going into 2019, while you had him already pegged as your favorite to win that San Juan (a year before he actually did). Yes, i'm the one with the double standards. And i certainly did not use his climb record of Picon Blanco as proof that the field was better at Burgos, as you and Netserk try to make it out, simply that, even if you don't agree that the field was stronger, that his climbing time alone was proof of how well he could climb. But again, taken out of context.

But maybe we should retrace our steps and see what i actually DID say that brought us here, and in what context i said that. Rick asked whether Evenepoel's climbing fame was based on hype or on actual performances. To which i responded "Probably about 99% of what happened on the road. Burgos had a stacked field due to Covid erasing most other races, it was a stronger GC field than the 2019 Vuelta or the 2020 Giro. It became one of the most important 1 week races of 2020 because of the heavily adjusted calendar. There was no ITT for him to take advantage of like in Algarve or BBT, and yet he absolutely smashed it." How dare i state facts like the names of actual participants after people painted me as some lunatic for making that post. Sorry, lol again, obviously.

Yesterday you asked me why i engage people like Rackham. I didn't engage, i simply responded to his post, like i try to do for everyone who enters a discussion with me in a normal way. Believe me, i much rather enter a discussion with someone who is biased against Evenepoel, than enter a discussion with people who are biased against me, and can't seem to make an argument without trying to make it about me, because that's a discussion you can't win. So, take a look around, and tell me what you think. Sure, i'll respond to Rackham. No problem. Can't say the same for others. When i claimed DQT was negligent with Evenepoel's coaching which was a factor with him crashing, people verbally attacked me. Same guy now calls me indecent because i respond to his posts. When i "dared" to state i thought Evenepoel was intrinsically a better climber than Almeida, a guy made a new account to tell me i was the dumbest fool he had ever seen, or something along those lines. People who troll discussions, don't get a fraction of the scrutiny my posts are put under. I make the above post, and well, you can read. So i think my time is coming to an end here. I really don't need this.

Logic, I don't want to contribute to chasing you away from the forum. But I don't follow your reasoning here and it may be because I am confused as to what we're really discussing. But I think it's a bit strange all this jumping around. I don't get why Remco's record on Picón Blanco is a valid argument for a strong line-up there when Roglic and Valverde's ditto on Acebo can be disregarded, and you maintain the field was weak there. And yes, I have always had very high thoughts of Remco and agree that he performed brilliantly in Burgos. But Valverde's and Mas' presence in that race did not add anything to his performance. Anyway, I think that's it for me in this discussion as well as it has just become too confusing.

And Salvarani, grow up, honestly, or put him on ignore.

 

[Salvarani]

And Salvarani, grow up, honestly, or put him on ignore.

Hard to do that when I try to put it to rest. And I keep getting mentioned and dragged in posts, about things that are not true.

 

[tobydawq]

Hard to do that when I try to put it to rest. And I keep getting mentioned and dragged in posts, about things that are not true.

There are a handful of posters I have put on ignore because their annoying ways infuriate me. Now I never see their posts. I don't see why you can't do the same here.

 

[Salvarani]

There are a handful of posters I have put on ignore because their annoying ways infuriate me. Now I never see their posts. I don't see why you can't do the same here.

Yeah, but right now I am being slandered for no reason in a discussion I was never a part of. I never engaged in this Burgos discussion at all and somehow found myself getting attacked in it. I have the right to defend myself when I dont agree about the narrative in that he speaks of/to me. For someone who claims he is getting personally insulted, he does a good job himself.

 

[Red Rick]

As for winning the 2020 Giro. I think it's also hard to ignore that the two biggest favorites went home after a crash and COVID respectively.

 

[tobydawq]

As for winning the 2020 Giro. I think it's also hard to ignore that the two biggest favorites went home after a crash and COVID respectively.

Yeah, too bad about G and Kruijswijk.

And don't forget Yates also got sent home.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah, too bad about G and Kruijswijk.

And don't forget Yates also got sent home.

I literally forgot about Kruijswijk.

 

[Valv.Piti]

So, are we actually comparing the strength of the Giro 2020 with the Vuelta 2019? The Giro 2020, the worst favourites since god knows when, to the Vuelta 2019?..... Okay, then.

Thats probably an ignore angle. Completely forgot that existed, thanks Toby

 

[SHAD0W93]

There are a handful of posters I have put on ignore because their annoying ways infuriate me. Now I never see their posts. I don't see why you can't do the same here.

If they start a thread do you see the thread at all?

 

[Red Rick]

If they start a thread do you see the thread at all?

No but you have a "show ignored" button in a subforum overview as well.

 

[SHAD0W93]

No but you have a "show ignored" button in a subforum overview as well.

Do you still see their message when they’re quoted or did they get rid of that?

 

[Roku]

Burgos is a preparation race, no matter how good the field is, how fun the race was or the conditions of the race.

The performance of Remco was very good. He was impressive as he was throughout 2020, but you cannot compare a third tier race with a Grand Tour (unless it's the 2020 Giro with the mighty Hart, Hindley and Kelderman fighting for pink).

 

[Red Rick]

Do you still see their message when they’re quoted or did they get rid of that?

No that's filtered out.

 

[Andre]

Yeah, but right now I am being slandered for no reason in a discussion I was never a part of. I never engaged in this Burgos discussion at all and somehow found myself getting attacked in it. I have the right to defend myself when I dont agree about the narrative in that he speaks of/to me. For someone who claims he is getting personally insulted, he does a good job himself.

He didn't insult you Salvarini. You might be getting a bit jumpy ..no? We are all grown men and women discussing what we love the most (which is cycling). The Remco haters are going to all kinds of trouble in trying to discredit Remco and make him smaller. We, the Remco fans, will show you the opposite (which is a rider who has done incredible things and will blow your mind in the future to come). In my opinion Logicisyourfriend has made the most sense in his arguments than most others. Credit also goes to Red Rick, Sandisfan, Big Doopie etc etc...too many to mention. Cheers to all for the entertainment....and "Go Remco Go"

 

[Salvarani]

He didn't insult you Salvarini. You might be getting a bit jumpy ..no? We are all grown men and women discussing what we love the most (which is cycling). The Remco haters are going to all kinds of trouble in trying to discredit Remco and make him smaller. We, the Remco fans, will show you the opposite (which is a rider who has done incredible things and will blow your mind in the future to come). In my opinion Logicisyourfriend has made the most sense in his arguments than most others. Credit also goes to Red Rick, Sandisfan, Big Doopie etc etc...too many to mention. Cheers to all for the entertainment....and "Go Remco Go"

You dont really know the story here, and what is an insult to me I will be sure to ask you next time.

I think everyone should move on and not rehash this any further. It is pretty pointless.

 

[red_flanders]

I like this thread because I'm interested in Remco Evenepoel. I really don't care about the member squabbles happening here. Take it to DM or somewhere else please. This stuff is totally off topic.