Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[hayneplane]

Tour de Suisse is blatantly a major objective for Remco in the same sense that Tirreno-Adriatico was as well. Secondary goals where performance in certain aspects are the objective rather than the end result.

The form peaks are aimed for LBL/Vuelta/Worlds with TA and TdS being lesser goals.

Itzulia was primarily a prep race for the Ardennes although every time he pins on a race number he can’t resist pushing to win.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Because when he wins, he's the best thing since sliced bread and he becomes the favourite in any race he enters in the future. If he doesn't win, there's always an excuse.

That's a rather peculiar take on facts, not to say downright disingenuous, though. Do you know one rider alive, for whom ''not winning'' is equal to losing, as it is for Evenepoel? The fact that excuses are needed to begin with, after finishing 2nd in GC in Valencia, should tell you something. After finishing 11th in GC in Tirreno. Finishing 19th in Lombardia. After missing the podium in Itzulia by 5 seconds (victory by 21 seconds). For any other rider, these results, especially combined with the races he actually does win, those would be great results. Certainly for a rider his age.

What has Vingegaard in god's name done after finishing 2nd in the TDF, and what has he done before that? Has him ''not winning'' anything of note... like, ever... been regarded as ''failing'' and called for excuses? Did him finishing 6th in Itzulia (behind Evenepoel) spur questions whether he could cope with short steep hills? Pidcock is revered as super talent, gets mentioned along Evenepoel easily. He's won 1 pro race, Brabantse Pijl, and has been a giant no-show in basically every race except Amstel he has been at for the past year. Including a turd of a Vuelta last year. No excuses needed. He's just a young rider figuring things out as he goes. Evenepoel though, not winning means question marks galore. And by the way, when he does win, he isn't the best thing since sliced bread. He simply passed one test. And that's what this topic is all about, and what it's been all about for the past 4 years. One test after another, like he is some lab rat.

The string of excuses why he has been able to win anything of note, has been equally if not more elaborate than those when he ''lost'' something. It's been the driving force behind this insatiable need for tests to begin with, hence this topic as a whole. From his first BYR jersey in his very first ever pro race, to winning his 9th stage race by winning 3 out of 6 stages including a MTF. From his first WCC medal to his first monument win. Either the opposition didn't care and let him ride away, or they were tired from the TDF, or they were simply preparing for a bigger race (while for Evenepoel there is no such thing as a prep race) or the main rivals were not present, or the opposition was worthless, or the others had a hard time training during covid.

So there are always excuses, if not on one side, then on the other. And hardly is he ever the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Big Doopie]

That's a rather peculiar take on facts, not to say downright disingenuous, though. Do you know one rider alive, for whom ''not winning'' is equal to losing, as it is for Evenepoel? The fact that excuses are needed to begin with, after finishing 2nd in GC in Valencia, should tell you something. After finishing 11th in GC in Tirreno. Finishing 19th in Lombardia. After missing the podium in Itzulia by 5 seconds (victory by 21 seconds). For any other rider, these results, especially combined with the races he actually does win, those would be great results. Certainly for a rider his age.

What has Vingegaard in god's name done after finishing 2nd in the TDF, and what has he done before that? Has him ''not winning'' anything of note... like, ever... been regarded as ''failing'' and called for excuses? Did him finishing 6th in Itzulia (behind Evenepoel) spur questions whether he could cope with short steep hills? Pidcock is revered as super talent, gets mentioned along Evenepoel easily. He's won 1 pro race, Brabantse Pijl, and has been a giant no-show in basically every race except Amstel he has been at for the past year. Including a turd of a Vuelta last year. No excuses needed. He's just a young rider figuring things out as he goes. Evenepoel though, not winning means question marks galore. And by the way, when he does win, he isn't the best thing since sliced bread. He simply passed one test. And that's what this topic is all about, and what it's been all about for the past 4 years. One test after another, like he is some lab rat.

The string of excuses why he has been able to win anything of note, has been equally if not more elaborate than those when he ''lost'' something. It's been the driving force behind this insatiable need for tests to begin with, hence this topic as a whole. From his first BYR jersey in his very first ever pro race, to winning his 9th stage race by winning 3 out of 6 stages including a MTF. From his first WCC medal to his first monument win. Either the opposition didn't care and let him ride away, or they were tired from the TDF, or they were simply preparing for a bigger race (while for Evenepoel there is no such thing as a prep race) or the main rivals were not present, or the opposition was worthless, or the others had a hard time training during covid.

So there are always excuses, if not on one side, then on the other. And hardly is he ever the best thing since sliced bread.

this is frankly perfect. particularly the second paragraph. dead on.

 

[Wvv]

That's a rather peculiar take on facts, not to say downright disingenuous, though. Do you know one rider alive, for whom ''not winning'' is equal to losing, as it is for Evenepoel? The fact that excuses are needed to begin with, after finishing 2nd in GC in Valencia, should tell you something. After finishing 11th in GC in Tirreno. Finishing 19th in Lombardia. After missing the podium in Itzulia by 5 seconds (victory by 21 seconds). For any other rider, these results, especially combined with the races he actually does win, those would be great results. Certainly for a rider his age.

What has Vingegaard in god's name done after finishing 2nd in the TDF, and what has he done before that? Has him ''not winning'' anything of note... like, ever... been regarded as ''failing'' and called for excuses? Did him finishing 6th in Itzulia (behind Evenepoel) spur questions whether he could cope with short steep hills? Pidcock is revered as super talent, gets mentioned along Evenepoel easily. He's won 1 pro race, Brabantse Pijl, and has been a giant no-show in basically every race except Amstel he has been at for the past year. Including a turd of a Vuelta last year. No excuses needed. He's just a young rider figuring things out as he goes. Evenepoel though, not winning means question marks galore. And by the way, when he does win, he isn't the best thing since sliced bread. He simply passed one test. And that's what this topic is all about, and what it's been all about for the past 4 years. One test after another, like he is some lab rat.

The string of excuses why he has been able to win anything of note, has been equally if not more elaborate than those when he ''lost'' something. It's been the driving force behind this insatiable need for tests to begin with, hence this topic as a whole. From his first BYR jersey in his very first ever pro race, to winning his 9th stage race by winning 3 out of 6 stages including a MTF. From his first WCC medal to his first monument win. Either the opposition didn't care and let him ride away, or they were tired from the TDF, or they were simply preparing for a bigger race (while for Evenepoel there is no such thing as a prep race) or the main rivals were not present, or the opposition was worthless, or the others had a hard time training during covid.

So there are always excuses, if not on one side, then on the other. And hardly is he ever the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

That's a rather peculiar take on facts, not to say downright disingenuous, though. Do you know one rider alive, for whom ''not winning'' is equal to losing, as it is for Evenepoel? The fact that excuses are needed to begin with, after finishing 2nd in GC in Valencia, should tell you something. After finishing 11th in GC in Tirreno. Finishing 19th in Lombardia. After missing the podium in Itzulia by 5 seconds (victory by 21 seconds). For any other rider, these results, especially combined with the races he actually does win, those would be great results. Certainly for a rider his age.

What has Vingegaard in god's name done after finishing 2nd in the TDF, and what has he done before that? Has him ''not winning'' anything of note... like, ever... been regarded as ''failing'' and called for excuses? Did him finishing 6th in Itzulia (behind Evenepoel) spur questions whether he could cope with short steep hills? Pidcock is revered as super talent, gets mentioned along Evenepoel easily. He's won 1 pro race, Brabantse Pijl, and has been a giant no-show in basically every race except Amstel he has been at for the past year. Including a turd of a Vuelta last year. No excuses needed. He's just a young rider figuring things out as he goes. Evenepoel though, not winning means question marks galore. And by the way, when he does win, he isn't the best thing since sliced bread. He simply passed one test. And that's what this topic is all about, and what it's been all about for the past 4 years. One test after another, like he is some lab rat.

The string of excuses why he has been able to win anything of note, has been equally if not more elaborate than those when he ''lost'' something. It's been the driving force behind this insatiable need for tests to begin with, hence this topic as a whole. From his first BYR jersey in his very first ever pro race, to winning his 9th stage race by winning 3 out of 6 stages including a MTF. From his first WCC medal to his first monument win. Either the opposition didn't care and let him ride away, or they were tired from the TDF, or they were simply preparing for a bigger race (while for Evenepoel there is no such thing as a prep race) or the main rivals were not present, or the opposition was worthless, or the others had a hard time training during covid.

So there are always excuses, if not on one side, then on the other. And hardly is he ever the best thing since sliced bread.

Nice reply and I agree with what you said. I wasn't meaning the excuses that come out of Remco's mouth (if any there are), it's what is said all over this thread. Whether it's his weight is too heavy/too light (probably about 25 pages worth), his watts weren't as good in such a race as they were in another (probably about 50 pages worth), the mountains were too steep/shallow, let's not forget the crash which he can always fall back on. the length of the stages, too cold/wet/dry/hot.
Other riders don't get their performances dissected like Remco does (he's obviously more popular), but to me, it does sound like every discussion after a race is an excuse unless he wins.
I've nothing against the lad, apart from him coming across as a bit of a spoilt brat. I like his riding style, aggressive, off the cuff, all or nothing, sometimes a bit stupid. What he has won in the past has been great for someone so young and for cycling. I wish him well in the his upcoming races.

 

[Bolder]

Part of it is just within social media. It's fun to get a rise out of certain posters...

But, one point I will make re "excuses": Remco has sometimes been less than gracious in defeat, but he is getting better as he matures. IMO MvdP is sort of the poster boy for a superstar rider dealing with victory and defeat. Never an excuse when he loses and always (well, I'm sure someone could find an instance when he hasnt...) praises the winner. Remco will (most probably) learn. Although Cav is still as annoyingly feisty as ever now that he's winning again...

I do think the comparisons to Vingegaard et al are a bit misplaced. When you are THE superstar of your generation, on a storied team, and maybe the No. 2 cyclist in a cycling-mad country, the burden of high expectations is one you have to bear. Wout has probably accomplished 75% of what he's going to do in cycling, but Remco probably only 10%. So naturally we expect great things in almost every race.

 

[Lequack]

He's winning the Vuelta!

"Patrick Lefevere, team boss at QuickStep Alpha Vinyl, has claimed Remco Evenepoel’s watts per kilogramme while climbing during his Tour of Norway win were better than anything Tour de France Tadej Pogačar (UAE Team Emirates) has put out this year. "

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/lefevere-reveals-evenepoels-new-watts-per-kg-claims-now-better-than-pogacar/

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He's winning the Vuelta!

"Patrick Lefevere, team boss at QuickStep Alpha Vinyl, has claimed Remco Evenepoel’s watts per kilogramme while climbing during his Tour of Norway win were better than anything Tour de France Tadej Pogačar (UAE Team Emirates) has put out this year. "

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/lefevere-reveals-evenepoels-new-watts-per-kg-claims-now-better-than-pogacar/

These w/kg are not always consistent with climbing speed (depending on estimation method and cyclist mass).
Remco had about 1800 m/h of VAM in Norway. Pogacar was slightly faster on Col du Romme (similar gradient) and his w/kg were rated as 6.42 w/kg. Pogacar's VAM on Peyresourde was about 1840 m/h and his wattage was estimated as 6.5 w/kg (same as Remco but he was faster).
Plus obviously low elevation plays some part but OTOH Remco's effort was a few minutes longer so more difficult to sustain.
Nevertheless, it was a great performance by Remco.

 

[Wvv]

He's winning the Vuelta!

"Patrick Lefevere, team boss at QuickStep Alpha Vinyl, has claimed Remco Evenepoel’s watts per kilogramme while climbing during his Tour of Norway win were better than anything Tour de France Tadej Pogačar (UAE Team Emirates) has put out this year. "

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/lefevere-reveals-evenepoels-new-watts-per-kg-claims-now-better-than-pogacar/

PatLev is also the first to state that "these numbers are not the same as winning races and they don't make him the n°1 favourite for the Vuelta".

 

[Lequack]

Stop doubting the numbers!

 

[spalco]

The biggest argument against Remco currently just is the the disastrous Giro, which was such a terrible idea from the start in all respects I still don't really understand how it could happen.

 

[Riek s]

He's winning the Vuelta!

"Patrick Lefevere, team boss at QuickStep Alpha Vinyl, has claimed Remco Evenepoel’s watts per kilogramme while climbing during his Tour of Norway win were better than anything Tour de France Tadej Pogačar (UAE Team Emirates) has put out this year. "

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/lefevere-reveals-evenepoels-new-watts-per-kg-claims-now-better-than-pogacar/

I think the key-note here is 'this year'. That is without Pogacar Tour form taken into account. (which is, by last year standard, unreachable for others, he even is the best TTer in the tour..)

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

He's winning the Vuelta!

"Patrick Lefevere, team boss at QuickStep Alpha Vinyl, has claimed Remco Evenepoel’s watts per kilogramme while climbing during his Tour of Norway win were better than anything Tour de France Tadej Pogačar (UAE Team Emirates) has put out this year. "

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/lefevere-reveals-evenepoels-new-watts-per-kg-claims-now-better-than-pogacar/

Please don't post links to fakenews cycling BS websites. I'm sure they are delighted to see people share their link, but a bit of factchecking wouldn't hurt.

1/ Lefevere didn't claim anything. He is aware of the numbers floating around (as provided by those twitter guys).
2/ He speaks in a conditional tense, ''numbers would be better''. He doesn't assume they are, he doesn't claim they are.
3/ His conclusion is that the numbers are meaningless because they do not take into account race conditions (multi-mountain, hard raced, windy or not, fatigue before final climb...).
4/ His take is certainly not that Evenepoel is better than Pogacar, as the title has you believe, he says unequivocally that to be better than Pogacar, means you have to beat him in the race.

 

[Sciatic]

That's a rather peculiar take on facts, not to say downright disingenuous, though. Do you know one rider alive, for whom ''not winning'' is equal to losing, as it is for Evenepoel? The fact that excuses are needed to begin with, after finishing 2nd in GC in Valencia, should tell you something. After finishing 11th in GC in Tirreno. Finishing 19th in Lombardia. After missing the podium in Itzulia by 5 seconds (victory by 21 seconds). For any other rider, these results, especially combined with the races he actually does win, those would be great results. Certainly for a rider his age.

What has Vingegaard in god's name done after finishing 2nd in the TDF, and what has he done before that? Has him ''not winning'' anything of note... like, ever... been regarded as ''failing'' and called for excuses? Did him finishing 6th in Itzulia (behind Evenepoel) spur questions whether he could cope with short steep hills? Pidcock is revered as super talent, gets mentioned along Evenepoel easily. He's won 1 pro race, Brabantse Pijl, and has been a giant no-show in basically every race except Amstel he has been at for the past year. Including a turd of a Vuelta last year. No excuses needed. He's just a young rider figuring things out as he goes. Evenepoel though, not winning means question marks galore. And by the way, when he does win, he isn't the best thing since sliced bread. He simply passed one test. And that's what this topic is all about, and what it's been all about for the past 4 years. One test after another, like he is some lab rat.

The string of excuses why he has been able to win anything of note, has been equally if not more elaborate than those when he ''lost'' something. It's been the driving force behind this insatiable need for tests to begin with, hence this topic as a whole. From his first BYR jersey in his very first ever pro race, to winning his 9th stage race by winning 3 out of 6 stages including a MTF. From his first WCC medal to his first monument win. Either the opposition didn't care and let him ride away, or they were tired from the TDF, or they were simply preparing for a bigger race (while for Evenepoel there is no such thing as a prep race) or the main rivals were not present, or the opposition was worthless, or the others had a hard time training during covid.

So there are always excuses, if not on one side, then on the other. And hardly is he ever the best thing since sliced bread.

I thought the only question really given serious (not just someone stirring the hornets nest) consideration is how he will fare in the mountainous 3rd week of a GT. Since we’ve never seen him perform in that circumstance (that I know of), isn’t that still a valid question to consider without it being “excuses” or being a naysayer? Or is this thread now like some of my professional conferences where one essentially can’t ask valid and pertinent questions if they pertain to certain protected topics?
I like watching Remco race, and he’s become one of my main folks I root for when he’s in a race. Regardless I have to accept being called a hater just to ask questions or point out logic inconsistencies here?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I thought the only question really given serious (not just someone stirring the hornets nest) consideration is how he will fare in the mountainous 3rd week of a GT. Since we’ve never seen him perform in that circumstance (that I know of), isn’t that still a valid question to consider without it being “excuses” or being a naysayer? Or is this thread now like some of my professional conferences where one essentially can’t ask valid and pertinent questions if they pertain to certain protected topics?
I like watching Remco race, and he’s become one of my main folks I root for when he’s in a race. Regardless I have to accept being called a hater just to ask questions or point out logic inconsistencies here?

It's worth noting what i was responding to. Nobody of the serious posters in this thread has an issue with wondering how he will fare over 3 weeks in the mountains. One would also hope pointing out his results last year having been rather hit or miss, due to his recovery not having been without it's issues would not be seen as ''looking for excuses'' but look, here we are.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

As far as excuse making goes the only place where this was an issue was after his crash and subsequent performance in the Giro. It's quite difficult to know if a racer can recover from such a nasty crash and if they will recover completely.

2020 Remco was crazy. There was a feeling that he was going to have a great shot at winning all the races he enterted.

2021 he still won but the aura faded a bit with a difficult Giro performance and sub substandard performances for Remco.

2022 started off a bit slow per Remco standards, but since LBL he's been one of the best if not the best cyclists in the world. His confidence is skyrocketing and he's been crushing his competition.

He's already got 8 wins this year and he's going to have lots of opportunities to win a lot more.

If he stays on form I could see him winning 10 more races this year, which seems like an insane amount, but he's riding at a crazy level.

 

[red_flanders]

It's worth noting what i was responding to. Nobody of the serious posters in this thread has an issue with wondering how he will fare over 3 weeks in the mountains. One would also hope pointing out his results last year having been rather hit or miss, due to his recovery not having been without it's issues would not be seen as ''looking for excuses'' but look, here we are.

I'd consider myself a serious poster in this thread, and I still wonder about him in a 3 week race. No more than I'd wonder about anyone else who is a contender but hasn't finished one, but GTs are a different animal. I tend to think he'll do really well, but I think it's a legitimate open question.

Does anyone who contributes to this thread NOT consider themselves a serious poster? Seems a bit like painting those with whom one disagrees in a negative light.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

I'd consider myself a serious poster in this thread, and I still wonder about him in a 3 week race. No more than I'd wonder about anyone else who is a contender but hasn't finished one, but GTs are a different animal. I tend to think he'll do really well, but I think it's a legitimate open question.

Does anyone who contributes to this thread NOT consider themselves a serious poster? Seems a bit like painting those with whom one disagrees in a negative light.

I don't think it's about questioning the three week tour ability, but more so being adamant he will never be successful when he has shown to be strong at long one day races 1 week stage races and has been aable to demonstrate big efforts on mutiple days.

I think he's quite suited to GT races but he needs some experience.

 

[Riek s]

As far as excuse making goes the only place where this was an issue was after his crash and subsequent performance in the Giro. It's quite difficult to know if a racer can recover from such a nasty crash and if they will recover completely.

2020 Remco was crazy. There was a feeling that he was going to have a great shot at winning all the races he enterted.

2021 he still won but the aura faded a bit with a difficult Giro performance and sub substandard performances for Remco.

2022 started off a bit slow per Remco standards, but since LBL he's been one of the best if not the best cyclists in the world. His confidence is skyrocketing and he's been crushing his competition.

He's already got 8 wins this year and he's going to have lots of opportunities to win a lot more.

If he stays on form I could see him winning 10 more races this year, which seems like an insane amount, but he's riding at a crazy level.

I think we grown used to it, but normally riders without a decent sprint are often riders who can count the wins on their hands over their whole carreer.
Winning a racce solo is extremely hard.
Yet Remco is winning them as if doing so is 'easy' on all kinds of terrain. (Gullegem is a great example about a race where a <63kg guy shouldn't win at all... and not in this way)

 

[memyselfandI]

Do you know one rider alive, for whom ''not winning'' is equal to losing, as it is for Evenepoel? .

Pogacar, Roglic, Van Aert, MVDP, Alaphilippe, Carapaz, Bernal, Froome, Simon Yates (Adam somehow avoids all this), Quintana, Ganna, Dumoulin and Sagan, for starters.

And in general, everyone. Please. Sliced bread is not a best thing, by far actually; it's an option for non-savvy, clueless people..but not the best thing. Cycling is the best thing that people can do when dressed up, so let's say Remco is the best thing after cycling. Thank you.

 

[memyselfandI]

The biggest argument against Remco currently just is the the disastrous Giro, which was such a terrible idea from the start in all respects I still don't really understand how it could happen.

He is completely different athlete imho at the moment, super good off season and early season. Really excited here to see what is coming as season proceeds. It seems now that he's balanced both mentally and physically.

 

[hayneplane]

I think we grown used to it, but normally riders without a decent sprint are often riders who can count the wins on their hands over their whole carreer.
Winning a racce solo is extremely hard.
Yet Remco is winning them as if doing so is 'easy' on all kinds of terrain. (Gullegem is a great example about a race where a <63kg guy shouldn't win at all... and not in this way)

Cancellara is a power TT based rider though he is many KG bigger and theoretically better suited to flat solo efforts than Remco yet he only had circa 23 road wins in stages/one day classics outside of national championships and ITT/TTT (88 wins overall including GCs according to PCS). It’s true that at least half of those mass start wins are of the very highest quality with 6 monuments, 3xE3, 2xSB plus Grand tour stages but he also had a stronger flat sprint in long races hence his multiple podiums in MSR.

That even a rider of that quality didn’t win a high volume of road stages shows how difficult it is to blast the peloton off your wheel and hold the gap solo which to me shows how well Remco is going on flat and rolling terrain to be so insanely prolific.

 

[Red Rick]

Cancellara does not fit the comparison at all. He never focused on the same races that Evenepoel did.

 

[Oldermanish]

Cancellara does not fit the comparison at all. He never focused on the same races that Evenepoel did.

Yes! Cancellara did GTs, Paris Roubaix and other classics. He also was a fairly handy teammate to GT skinny boys. He did seem to enjoy all types of racing in an era that allowed it. The demand for results appears heightened. Perhaps it's the microscopic analysis that keyboard DSs read every race nuance and databit.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Pogacar, Roglic, Van Aert, MVDP, Alaphilippe, Carapaz, Bernal, Froome, Simon Yates (Adam somehow avoids all this), Quintana, Ganna, Dumoulin and Sagan, for starters.

Not even close.

I'd consider myself a serious poster in this thread, and I still wonder about him in a 3 week race. No more than I'd wonder about anyone else who is a contender but hasn't finished one, but GTs are a different animal. I tend to think he'll do really well, but I think it's a legitimate open question.

Does anyone who contributes to this thread NOT consider themselves a serious poster? Seems a bit like painting those with whom one disagrees in a negative light.

Not sure what your point is. I said it was a legitimate concern.

I'm also sure Illmaestro, victorschipolrijk, pvieira91 ... all consider themselves serious posters. Just like i'm sure Trump and Putin think very highly of themselves as well.
Seems a bit like trying to come across as the voice of reason at the expense of other posters.